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Your eyes can deceive you...
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
Whill wrote:
I'm just saying Concentration as is never made sense to me, and there doesn't absolutely have to be a Force Power at work.


Whill, do you think doing Concentration as listed in the books works if you just ignore the second part (as discussed here, where you ignore the line "The Jedi receives no bonus if anything else is done in that round, including duplicate uses of the same skill or dodges or parries.")? Or does something like SWR's proposed alternate Concentration power (listed in that same thread) make more sense?

Actually, I'm hung up on the name of the power for starters. Concentration is commonly defined as "intense mental application" and that seems to be the opposite of clearing thoughts from your mind and being "relaxed and at peace" as described in both the RAW version and Shootingwomprats' revision. It seems to be describing something closer to meditation than concentration, and I don't know if that is applicable to the effect. And even changing the name of the power or the fluff description to not contradict, I'm kind of up in the air right now regarding the effect - Force powers that just give you bonus to many different possible skill rolls of your choosing (with the described limitations). This power is like using 4 CPs on a single action, but you don't have to spend the CPs. I'm not saying powers like this and Enhance Attribute shouldn't exist - Anakin being the only human who could fly pod racers because he has "Jedi reflexes" and "sees things before they happen" does seem to imply Force-users can enhance various mundane actions. I just can't really offer anything helpful as far as how the mechanics should work for something like that right now. Sorry.

The main reason the power's flawed example never made sense to me is because it seemed to be unnecessarily overcomplicating something which already had a simple explanation, the existing mechanic that all PCs and some NPCs have access to: FPs. Force-sensitive characters tend to have more FPs, and they double everything for one round regardless of how many actions are taken. No Force power necessary.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Whill"

The main reason the power's flawed example never made sense to me is because it seemed to be unnecessarily overcomplicating something which already had a simple explanation, the existing mechanic that all PCs and some NPCs have access to: FPs. Force-sensitive characters tend to have more FPs, and they double everything for one round regardless of how many actions are taken. No Force power necessary.[/quote]

(Playing Sith Advocate here)
Ah, but if it was just FPs and CPs, there would be nothing to use Force Skills for!

I agree that Concentrate is flawed. IMO what it does is allow fledging Jedi to actually accomplish something, seeing as how their attributes and skills are so poor across the board. The Force attribute helps with that, as does a single method for add force skill bonuses to other skills and attributes.

Oh, and Yoda telling Luke to concetrate doesn't help.


Maybe what we need is a rule to do a "Full Force use" the way you can do a full dodge?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:

I agree with the consensus. And like I said before I do want to (someday) revise the force powers so that they all work basically the same way. That is the power adds, subtracts , or substitutes the a Force Skill (or part of it) to an existing skill or attribute.
There are so many powers where the character uses the Force to augment an existing ability that I think one method of application would help.


Which would you base them off of? You have several existing. Enhance attribute (up to 3d max but duration is based on how many D you gain), Battle meld/enhance coordination, which its based on how many are coordinated, concentration which is a flat 4d bonus?
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:

Which would you base them off of? You have several existing. Enhance attribute (up to 3d max but duration is based on how many D you gain), Battle meld/enhance coordination, which its based on how many are coordinated, concentration which is a flat 4d bonus?


Probably on a relevant Force skill, but possibly only on a Force attribute, if we used one. Both approaches have merit.

The first approach would allow the character to add a Force Skill or part of it to the desired skill or attribute. A physical power such as Enhance attribute would use Control. Powers that use multiple Force skills would use the lower applicable Force skill.

The second approach would be to tie the actual bonus gained to a character's Force attribute (assuming we added one as per another thread). In that case, just how much of a benefit the character gets would be tied to the attribute. So those who are stronger in the Force would get a higher bonus. Note that if this approach is used, the rolls to activate the bonus would still be tied tot he skill scores. This has the advantage of actually allowing for characters who are skilled but not very strong with the Force and vice versa. Someone like Anakin or Luke would have a very high Force Attribute, but little skill to start with. This would seem to mirror the films better than the RAW, and also explains why Luke could go so good so quickly.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
DougRed4 wrote:
Whill wrote:
I'm just saying Concentration as is never made sense to me, and there doesn't absolutely have to be a Force Power at work.


Whill, do you think doing Concentration as listed in the books works if you just ignore the second part (as discussed here, where you ignore the line "The Jedi receives no bonus if anything else is done in that round, including duplicate uses of the same skill or dodges or parries.")? Or does something like SWR's proposed alternate Concentration power (listed in that same thread) make more sense?

Actually, I'm hung up on the name of the power for starters. Concentration is commonly defined as "intense mental application" and that seems to be the opposite of clearing thoughts from your mind and being "relaxed and at peace" as described in both the RAW version and Shootingwomprats' revision. It seems to be describing something closer to meditation than concentration, and I don't know if that is applicable to the effect. And even changing the name of the power or the fluff description to not contradict, I'm kind of up in the air right now regarding the effect - Force powers that just give you bonus to many different possible skill rolls of your choosing (with the described limitations). This power is like using 4 CPs on a single action, but you don't have to spend the CPs. I'm not saying powers like this and Enhance Attribute shouldn't exist - Anakin being the only human who could fly pod racers because he has "Jedi reflexes" and "sees things before they happen" does seem to imply Force-users can enhance various mundane actions. I just can't really offer anything helpful as far as how the mechanics should work for something like that right now. Sorry.

The main reason the power's flawed example never made sense to me is because it seemed to be unnecessarily overcomplicating something which already had a simple explanation, the existing mechanic that all PCs and some NPCs have access to: FPs. Force-sensitive characters tend to have more FPs, and they double everything for one round regardless of how many actions are taken. No Force power necessary.


Thanks for the explanation; that does make sense, for the most part.

I don't see FP as anything other than a finite resource, though. Per the RAW, using them for mundane things (such as Anakin using one to win a podrace) means they're spent and not replaced.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though one COULD say it was 'used for heroics and at the dramatic time' cause otherwise the Naboo ship, Padme and both Jedis would have been stuck on Tatooine, and Qui-gon would have been in hot water.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
Thanks for the explanation; that does make sense, for the most part.

I don't see FP as anything other than a finite resource, though. Per the RAW, using them for mundane things (such as Anakin using one to win a podrace) means they're spent and not replaced.


I never said Anakin used a FP for the podrace. I was using the dialogue of Qui-Gon about Anakin for the case of the existence of Force powers that increase non-Force skill checks, such as Concentration and Enhance Attribute. The discussion of Force Point was in regards to Luke's two torpedo shots into the Death Star.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@garhkal: I almost threw out a caveat that I realize it was needed for the betterment of the party; still, per the RAW it still likely wouldn't earn him one back again if he spent one.

@Whill: I was more pointing things out in response to your statement that "The main reason the power's flawed example never made sense to me is because it seemed to be unnecessarily overcomplicating something which already had a simple explanation, the existing mechanic that all PCs and some NPCs have access to: FPs. Force-sensitive characters tend to have more FPs, and they double everything for one round regardless of how many actions are taken. No Force power necessary."
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I didn't mean that statement about Concentration or any Force powers that increase non-Force actions to be taken in general for all things. I meant to qualify that FPs were good enough specifically for Luke's destruction of the Death Star.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Giving this a bump because something in a separate topic reminded me of it.

I think atgxtg had a good idea early on, in that the Force users should get either a bonus from Fire Control or a boost from Sense, but not both. This both fits with the canon and helps alleviate one aspect of power creep by keeping the character from stacking the two.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
I think Whill is onto something.

I think orginally, when the d6 RPG was written, Luke's shot of the Death Star was indeed an example of a PC using a Force Point.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I think atgxtg had a good idea early on, in that the Force users should get either a bonus from Fire Control or a boost from Sense, but not both. This both fits with the canon and helps alleviate one aspect of power creep by keeping the character from stacking the two.

I feel that is quite reasonable. I've always not permitted Fire Control to be used with FPs (for Force or non-Force characters).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I feel that is quite reasonable. I've always not permitted Fire Control to be used with FPs (for Force or non-Force characters).

So, if I understand correctly, a non-FS character spending a FP on a Gunnery roll would apply the FP to the skill roll only, then add any FC bonus on after the fact?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's how it should work. Non skill based bonuses just add in after doubling the skill..

Sort of like
B-iwaa, ithorian pilot needs to render first aid to his downed rebel spec force ally. He's mortally wounded, and has already had a med pack used this combat, so needs a 25 to heal him.
However, B-iwaa only has a 3d+2 first aid skill, but does have a med device granting +1d+2. So he spends a FP.
His first aid is now 6d+4 (averages out to 25 exactly)
BUT adding in the medical scanner's 1d+2 bonus, puts his average roll now at a 30.5. More than adequate to hit the target mark.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill, when you bumped this old thread, I went back and skimmed it before replying. I was just rephrasing what I said back in 2014 (page 3).

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
I feel that is quite reasonable. I've always not permitted Fire Control to be used with FPs (for Force or non-Force characters).

So, if I understand correctly, a non-FS character spending a FP on a Gunnery roll would apply the FP to the skill roll only, then add any FC bonus on after the fact?

No. What you are saying is already RAW. In my game, when a FP is used, Fire Control is not added to the rolls at all for that round. So if you have 2D Gunnery using a 3D Fire Control weapon, you would roll less with a FP than without so it wouldn't make sense to use an FP for that. Fire Control still works with CPs in my game though. FPs should really be saved for something special where it will really make a difference.

With me you get the technological bonus, or The Force Point bonus, but not both at the same time. This is inspired by Luke turning off the targeting computer, letting go of his conscious self and acting on instinct in the Death Star trench. That was a conscious decision for Luke to "let go", but in my game, the same principle applies even when the FP manifests as a subconscious benefit to the character. They don't have to consciously turn off the targeting computer (that was just for dramatic effect in the film), but the result is the same - No benefit from the technological aid.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh. gotcha. That's an interesting angle to take.. Does it apply to other things?? like the example i used? What other 'tech based/non-skill based bonuses don't work' with spending a FP?
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