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A Force attribute?
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could you not simply have both?

Why not have everyone that exists within the living force has the force attribute at 1D, this is the imprint that individual has with the force and what gives them the way to be affected by the force. Droids have 0D in this attribute and are generally not affected by the Force. The force attribute represents a being’s potential within the force.

They also have a Force Sensitive checkbox which indicates their ability to influence the force. If the force sensitive checkbox isn’t ticked then they cannot learn force powers/skills. The force sensitive checkbox represents a being’s ability to tap into their force potential.

So if a player decided not to be force sensitive but to have 3D in the force attribute they’d have lots of potential but it would be inaccessible. Perhaps they’d really shine to Jedi and it would seem like they had some great destiny.

I’d probably try to work in some way of having a high force attribute be beneficial to characters even if they weren’t force sensitive but I can’t quite picture how that’d work yet.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
Could you not simply have both?


Conceivably, but it would require making up special rules for Force as an attribute that treat it differently than other attributes. Under normal attributes, if you have even 1D, you have an immediate potential to learn skills under that attribute. In fact, it could even be argued that giving someone a 0D would still count as a base attribute (personally, my thinking is that a 0D indicates that you have no aptitude in that attribute at all and can't learn any skills in it). Applying the same rule to a Force attribute means that everyone has the immediate potential to learn Force skills, which is not the way it is presented in the films or the EU.


Quote:
So if a player decided not to be force sensitive but to have 3D in the force attribute they’d have lots of potential but it would be inaccessible. Perhaps they’d really shine to Jedi and it would seem like they had some great destiny..


I have difficulty imagining circumstances under which any player would deliberately shunt 3D in starting attribute dice into an attribute that they couldn't use unless they paid 20CP to turn on their Force Sensitivity...
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to interject into this dialog between atgxtg and crmcneill, but it seems we may be splitting hairs here. Let me try to break down the basics so perhaps we can move forward:

atgxtg's Force attribute 1D = character can't use Force
atgxtg's Force attribute 2D or more = can use Force

crmcneill's Force attribute 0D = character can't use Force
crmcneill's Force attribute 1D or more = can use Force

Is this correct? At first glance these don't seem too different. It just seems to mainly be an issue of defining the scale.

I happen to be with crmcneill for the above. If a character has no ability to use Force powers, it seems most logical to me to have 0 represent that.

Moving forward from that, both atgxtg and crmcneill idea's seem to honor RAW's allowing of a character to switch to being able to learn and use Force powers after play begins. Correct? I differ from them both (and RAW) by not allowing it.

atgxtg's Force attribute 1D does not allow characters to use Force powers, but it differs from crmcneill's and RAW's "Force Sensitive? No" in that everyone is Force sensitive with respect to susceptibility to Dark Side points. With respect to the moral grey area, by stating everyone eventually has to choose good or bad, it seems atgxtg is stating that PCs stating with Force attribute 1D may not start play with any Dark Side Points but after play begins there may be little to no difference as to the GM's moral judgment of what actions would earn PCs Dark Side Points. Correct?

I do lean towards atgxtg idea of a more absolute morality, even for non-Force-using characters. Bad is bad, and I have no qualms about dishing out DSPs to non-Force PCs whose players do not heed the warnings and do bad things anyway, with the real threat of the PC becoming an NPC if the PC game mechanically crosses over to the Dark Side. However, I do still feel that Force-sensitive characters have a higher standard so there is still that division in my game where not everyone is Force-sensitive.

As crmcneill indicated, atgxtg's Force attribute 2D being the beginning of Force-using ability automatically gives all these PCs 2D starting in all three Force skills, which I agree is too high.

I agree that Force-users should be very rare. Leia is a Skywalker but she still believed she could never learn to use the Force because she didn't "have" that "power", and Luke replied that his "father has it, I have it, and my sister has it." In my opinion, the correct interpretation of the film universe is that it's a 'have it or you don't' thing, so there is no way that all beings in the galaxy have potential to use Force powers. RAW clearly interprets it that way as well. I choose to adhere to that standard. The vast majority of sentients in my Star Wars galaxy do not even have CPs, let alone FPs which are even more rare. The potential for the ability to have Force powers is extremely rare. Those are indeed a special rare breed. In my game, droids can't even have FPs (so official stats for R2 and 3PO are wrong IMO). But I'll let important droids have CPs.

atgxtg, my resistance to your ideas would slightly lessen if it were just all PCs only starting with 1D in the Force, because PCs are a teeny tiny fraction of all galactic beings. Still not the way I would do it, but that would go alone with the RAW ability for any PC to spend CPs to become Force-sensitive at any time. In any SW game, the only characters you even need to really worry about are PCs and important NPCs. Does it really matter if every Joe Antilles on the street corner has the potential to use the Force anyway? Just food for thought - Of course you are the lord and master of your SWU and should do whatever you want for your game.

Have I misinterpreted or misunderstood either of you on any points? If so, please correct me. But we shouldn't bother wasting energy on trying to persuade each other that our individual ways of handling it are better for others. Once we are clear on each other's view's and why, it may be best to just agree to disagree on some points and move forward.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Succinct as always, Whill. That pretty much covers it. My only disagreement with your POV is that I think a starting Force attribute of 3D for Jedi characters (and allowing them to start with 4D in skills) is appropriate, as it allows for greater success percentages when actually using certain powers. However, I think I would limit Force power selection to every D increased above the attribute, rather than every D above 0.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Esoomian wrote:
Could you not simply have both?


Conceivably, but it would require making up special rules for Force as an attribute that treat it differently than other attributes. Under normal attributes, if you have even 1D, you have an immediate potential to learn skills under that attribute. In fact, it could even be argued that giving someone a 0D would still count as a base attribute (personally, my thinking is that a 0D indicates that you have no aptitude in that attribute at all and can't learn any skills in it). Applying the same to rule to a Force attribute means that everyone has the immediate potential to learn Force skills, which is not the way it is presented in the films or the EU.

Quote:
So if a player decided not to be force sensitive but to have 3D in the force attribute they’d have lots of potential but it would be inaccessible. Perhaps they’d really shine to Jedi and it would seem like they had some great destiny..


I have difficulty imagining circumstances under which any player would deliberately shunt 3D in starting attribute dice into an attribute that they couldn't use unless they paid 20CP to turn on their Force Sensitivity...

Esoomian, the idea of making the Force a 7th attribute means it is in the pool of attribute dice to allocate to all attributes. If you still had the standard 18D, then every PC having at least 1D in the Force would mean they only have 17D for the other six attributes. It would be pointless to allocate 3D to the Force and not be Force sensitive, because then you'd only have 15D to allocate to the rest of attributes. The idea of the Force being a 7th attribute is that you could have 0D in the Force if you didn't want to use the Force, and you would still have the full 18D to allocate to the other attributes like you do now. If you have at least 1D in the Force, you gain access to the ability to use Force skills and learn Force powers, but you have an accordingly less attribute die pool for the rest. This way the number of dice you allocate to the Force represents an aspect of how naturally strong the PC is with the Force, and the Force skills default to the attribute like normal skills. To me that makes more sense that the number of dice subtracted from the attribute dice pool being equal to the number of Force skills you start with.

crmcneill wrote:
Succinct as always, Whill. That pretty much covers it. My only disagreement with your POV is that I think a starting Force attribute of 3D for Jedi characters (and allowing them to start with 4D in skills) is appropriate, as it allows for greater success percentages when actually using certain powers.

That's not my POV, but I did fail to convey that and I did misinterpret your point. Sorry about that. I meant, I agree that a 1D difference in attributes is a significant difference for the bare minimum of being able to use the Force, when considering that atgxtg's Force-using PCs start at 2D in the Force.

Regarding maximum available starting power for Force-PCs, I seem to be a little different. 3D would also be my normal max Force attribute for most species (if a player really wanted handicap his PC by only having 15D for the other attributes), but I would still only allow the usual 2D max skill dice to allocate to any Force skill, yielding a 5D max starting Force skill. If I understand yours right, you could have a PC starting with 7D in a Force skill. In my game, I would strongly encourage any Force PC to not have more than 1D in the Force so they would still have 17D for the six normal attributes.

crmcneill wrote:
However, I think I would limit Force power selection to every D increased above the attribute, rather than every D above 0.

Makes sense to me since the Force attribute represents the natural raw ability and the Force skills represent the training (and powers comes with raising skills).
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
That's not my POV, but I did fail to convey that and I did misinterpret your point. Sorry about that.

Ah. No problem.

Quote:
In my game, I would strongly encourage any Force PC to not have more than 1D in the Force so they would still have 17D for the six normal attributes.

That makes sense but, IMO, any player who was willing to play a starting Jedi under the RAW with 15D in attribute dice and 1D in each Force skill will likely jump at the chance to start out with the same numbers for attributes and the starting equivalent of 3D in each skill.

In addition, in previous discussions involving Advantage / Disadvantage systems, I have posited allowing characters to take Disadvantages to boost their Force attribute (and hinting that this was what happened with Anakin, while writing the rules so that he was still out of reach).
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Quote:
In my game, I would strongly encourage any Force PC to not have more than 1D in the Force so they would still have 17D for the six normal attributes.

That makes sense but, IMO, any player who was willing to play a starting Jedi under the RAW with 15D in attribute dice and 1D in each Force skill will likely jump at the chance to start out with the same numbers for attributes and the starting equivalent of 3D in each skill.



As someone who has played a number of Jedi, both starting level and advanced level at creation, I agree wholeheartedly. It would be freaking AWESOME to start off with 3D in each skill, especially if the character gets 3 Force skills per 1D in the skill. It would be a way to possibly accurately have a Padawan like the one in EPI III, the one at the Jedi Temple, who was almost holding his own against a squad of clone troopers. It gives a player the chance to play a Padawan who's been training for years, but is nowhere near the top of the heap.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Sorry to interject into this dialog between atgxtg and crmcneill, but it seems we may be splitting hairs here.


Thast's what I thought.

Whill wrote:

Let me try to break down the basics so perhaps we can move forward:

atgxtg's Force attribute 1D = character can't use Force
atgxtg's Force attribute 2D or more = can use Force

crmcneill's Force attribute 0D = character can't use Force
crmcneill's Force attribute 1D or more = can use Force

Is this correct? At first glance these don't seem too different. It just seems to mainly be an issue of defining the scale.


Exactly. Thanks for interjecting with a little Form VI! Now back to the topic...


One thing I did type that got buried in the "one-die wars" was the idea of tiing the effects of Force Powers to the Force attribute.


Another thing , is that while I am in favor of a Force attribute, I am concerned about some of the effects of adding one.

-Since a Force attribute would so dominant to a starting Jedi's abilities, what's to keep players for always maxing out their Force stat? Or taking the template with the highest Force stat?

-With higher die codes possible in Force skills, do we need to add some restrictions on a starting character Force powers? At 5D, most powers are actually usable!

-Can starting character get away with just buying 1 pip in the Force stat and being Force Sensitive so they can get Force Skills?

-Can the Force attributive be trained up like the other attributes, or is it fixed for life?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
One thing I did type that got buried in the "one-die wars" was the idea of tiing the effects of Force Powers to the Force attribute.

IMO, an attribute should just be an indicator of base talent, with the actual effects based on the degree to which the character has learned to use that talent (i.e. the skills).

Quote:
-Since a Force attribute would so dominant to a starting Jedi's abilities, what's to keep players for always maxing out their Force stat? Or taking the template with the highest Force stat?

-With higher die codes possible in Force skills, do we need to add some restrictions on a starting character Force powers? At 5D, most powers are actually usable!


I'd start with the existing Force User templates by counting the attribute dice shown on the template. The Alien Student of the Force, the Revwien Tyia Adept and the Young Jedi all have 15D in attributes and 3D in Force skills. The Failed Jedi (oddly enough) has 16D / 2D and the Quixotic Jedi has 17D /1D. What I would suggest is using the starting number of Force skill dice on the templates to generate a starting Force attribute for each, then let them start at +1D in each skill listed on the template.

This does bring up another thing...

On the RAW templates, selecting Yes on the template did not automatically mean that you had dice in the Force skills; it just meant that you got an extra Force Point and the ability to learn those skills. By using the method I described above for the existing Force User templates, it doesn't leave any of the other templates with any room to just pick "Yes" and leave it at that.

EDIT: Having given my previous idea some due consideration, I've changed my mind. IMO, any character who wants to use an existing template and make it Force Sensitive will have to sacrifice a minimum of 1D from the other 6 attributes. Whole D may be broken up into pips as per normal rules of exchange.

As for capping, I might issue an arbitrary ruling to Force using characters that you have to start with what is on your sheet; you can't put starting dice into Force skills. This caps everybody off at a maximum 4D to start, which gives them the ability to use minor Force power with a reasonable expectation of success. You could also make a species maximum as a hard cap, in that you could (conceivably) increase your Force attribute up to that point, but no further.

As for persons designing their own templates, GM approval is key; if you don't want your players maxing out Force skills and such during character design, don't let them.

Quote:
-Can starting character get away with just buying 1 pip in the Force stat and being Force Sensitive so they can get Force Skills?

I would rule that there would be no pips allowed between 0D and 1D, in that, to become Force Sensitive, a non-FS paying the 20CP cost would go from 0D to 1D with nothing in-between.

Quote:
-Can the Force attributive be trained up like the other attributes, or is it fixed for life?

If you allow characters to pay the price for awakening Force sensitivity, then I don't see why not. Just use the same rules you would for increasing any of the other attributes.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't believe I'm going to say this....

I think the best solution in to have everyone have a midi-chorlain count, and the level that a character would be Force-Sensitive.

We have canon that states that all living cells have midi-chorlians, and we know that some living things have them higher than others. We also know that Anakin had the highest levels and more than 20,000, even higher than Yoda, and it seemed that this level could be found out with a simple blood test on a ship's computer of a certain size, say at least Space Transport size.

Now all we would need is a scale of midi-chorlian levels that would have a character be Force-Sensitive, the starting D for Force Skills and the cost in Character Points for increasing Force Skills and Force Power difficulty. The higher on the scale the higher the starting D, the lower the CP cost to improve, the quicker the training time and lower difficulty level. I think this would be the way I would diverge from Rules As Written.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh. Starting characters can roll 5d10. If the die for the ten-thousands place rolls over 20,000, then that die is removed. Otherwise the d10s show your midichlorian count.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully at least vaugely on topic, an example of how something like how atgxtg wants things (as I understand it) could work, is how I handle (part of) the "metaphysics" in my Secret of Zir'An D6 game.

In Zir'An, beside the other, "normal" attributes (although I use a somewhat different attribute array than in Star Wars), everyone has also a Shadow attribute. In fact, every living being has it (and even some not quite living ones). For ordinary humans, the natural range for Shadow is from 2D minimum/adult average to 6D maximum.

A being's Shadow is a measure of both the power and resilence of their spirit/soul/(un)consciousness (as a concept it is also kind of tied to the idea of the Shadow per Carl Jung), and it can be either Dormant or Awakened.

Regardless of the Shadow being Awakened or not, it serves a character against attacks on their soul and/or mind in a similiar way as Strength would against physiscal attacks. Attacks and powers aiming to in some way subjugate or directly damage a character's spirit or mind must first conquer with their skill the character's Willpower skill (the equivalent of the roll to hit against dodge/parry for physiscal attacks), and then roll their power against the character's Shadow to determine the extent to which they have an effect (the equivalent of the damage vs Strength roll to determine injury inflicted for physical attacks).

People with Dormant Shadows are just ordinary Joes and Jills, with no special powers. All they get from their Shadows is the "spiritual soak" described above. Those with Awakened Shadows are blessed and cursed at once. In addition to the above, they get the ability to learn Shadow Weaving, which lets them tame and actively utilize the metaphysical power of their Shadow to influence and alter reality. In fact, they pretty much must learn it, as an Awakened Shadow must be tamed and controlled, least it runs rampant fueled by the owner's Id and become a danger to it's owner and his surroundings. Mechanically, Shadow Weaving is a skill (basically equivalent to Force skills), and not based on the Shadow attribute but on Wits (mostly equivalent to SW Perception), which is rolled to perform separately learned Geas' (basically equivalent to Force powers). An Awakened Shadow generates for its owner a regenerating pool of Shadow Points dependant on its die code, and each Geas costs a certain number of those to perform. The Shadow is also the basis for the strength/damage of any power that attacks the target in some way, either spiritually, mentally or physically. If an Awakened character's Shadow Weaving skill is not at least equal to their Shadow, they risk the Shadow slipping free of control, the more often the weaker the control is, and acting on it's own, or even attempting to take control of the character. A rampant Shadow is kind of like the Dark Side, except it comes only from inside your own soul and subconscious.

It doesn't translate fully of course, starting with the metaphysics of the settings being different. But it has a "Force" attribute which everybody has some rating in, and a separate "Sensitive" condition which must be met before they can do anything active with it.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A thought that occurred to me while reading this thread (as I don't like the idea of having to take some of the initial 18D allocated to attributes, as it makes any Jedi-type characters too weak starting out):

What if a Force attribute only replaced Perception for Force Sensitive characters? There's a few skills (Like Hide) that are harder to rationalize, but many of them actually fit pretty well with one's inherent ability to control and use the Force.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
A thought that occurred to me while reading this thread (as I don't like the idea of having to take some of the initial 18D allocated to attributes, as it makes any Jedi-type characters too weak starting out):

But under the RAW, starting Jedi-type characters are already losing 2D-3D from their starting attributes. This simply rectifies that inequity by giving Jedi-type characters a stronger starting position with regard to being able to use Force skills.

Quote:
What if a Force attribute only replaced Perception for Force Sensitive characters? There's a few skills (Like Hide) that are harder to rationalize, but many of them actually fit pretty well with one's inherent ability to control and use the Force.

Because Perception is a measurement of what a person sees with their physical senses. Just because a person can sense things through the Force doesn't mean that they go blind. An ability to use Force skills can always augment normal senses, or substitute for them in emergencies.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

griff wrote:
I can't believe I'm going to say this....

I think the best solution in to have everyone have a midi-chorlain count, and the level that a character would be Force-Sensitive.


That's what I was thinking, and also a big reason why I wanted to give every living creature some sort of Force rating.


If we stick with the idea that a normal human has a midi-count of 2500, and that Anakin has a rating "over 20,000", start with a rating of 2500 equal to 0D (for sake of argument) and use a doubling progression.

2500 = 0D
5000 =1D
10000=2D
20000=3D

+26% (say 25%) =+1 pip
+59% (say 60%) =+2 pips


That seems to match up pretty closely to the scale Whill and crmcneill are using. Also, since Anakin is rated at "over 20,000" he could have a rating much higher than 3D. It could simply be that the equipment used to measure midi-chorialns only went up to 20,000. They probably never figuered to encounter someone with a rating that high.

Just check on Wookieepeida and:
Wookieepedia wrote:

Counts as low as 2,000 midi-chlorians per cell provided no sensitivity to the Force;[7] an average Human had less than 2,500 per cell, while a mildly Force-sensitive being such as Nova Stihl had a count in excess of 5,000.[8] According to Sith Lord Darth Tenebrous, a being born of "pure force" might have a count of 15,000 or more, implying that most Force-sensitives did not have a count that high.[9] Jedi had especially high midi-chlorian counts, and of them Anakin Skywalker was said to have the highest ever recorded[2] at over 20,000, even higher than the powerful Jedi Master Yoda.[6] Though Skywalker later lost a good deal of his organic body, his cells continued to teem with midi-chlorians.


So the scale seems to match up pretty well with Wookieepedia, too. Maybe set 2000 to 0D?

2000 = No Sensitivity (0D)
2500 = about 1 pip
4000 = Mildly Force Snestive (1D)
8000 = (2D)
15000+ = "Being Born of Pure Force" (2D+2)
16000 = 3D


Last edited by atgxtg on Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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