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A Force attribute?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Anyway, the point is: do these rules fit the SW RPG, and allow the use of the Force as it is presented in the movies? Maybe they suit the game better than original set of rules?

There is actually a conflict between the films and the RAW as to how the Force is used. In the films, there is very much a symbiotic connection between the Force and the Force user, with some aspects of the Force being instinctual in nature. I've long been a proponent of the idea that certain powers should come up "automatically" (i.e. the GM should tell the player to roll Sense for certain powers in much the same way that non-FS characters should be told to roll Perception or Search, or when rolling initiative). Unfortunately, WEG's RAW for Force use focuses almost entirely on conscious use, treating the Force more like Spell Magic from D&D, in that if you wanted to use the Force, you had to declare which part of the Force you were using, then roll to bring it up. So, my take is that since the game rules are a flawed effort to reflect what we see in the films, the game rules should evolve to match what we see in the newer films. A house rule for a Force Attribute is part and parcel of that, in that the prequels and EU show us that there are varying grades of natural aptitude.

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garhkal wrote:
But isn't danger sense on yourself only, not on others??

Normally, yes. I asked about these new rules as they eliminate to the need to think about such things. “Will this power allow to do that?? Or how much should we modify it” and there goes an endless debate: players vs GM. With this rules you simply state what effect you wish to achieve, sum up the necessary modifiers and roll the difficulty.
But the power effect calculation requires some number of variables to be taken into account. So I guess a practice is needed to quickly estimate power difficulties during session. Has anyone tried it during session? Does it slow the dynamics and fun?

Something you need to understand about garhkal is that he is diametrically opposed to altering the RAW, regardless of reason. Things may be added to the RAW (new stats, new Force powers, etc), but the RAW itself is inviolate. In this case, he's balking at the idea of changing Danger Sense, even if such a change would be an incredibly simple fix to permit what is seen in the films. The only fix he'd be willing to accept would be an additional power - call it Sense Others In Danger, for sake of discussion - with Danger Sense as a prerequisite.

He and I have gone round and round and round over pretty much anything you can imagine, and the only thing you can do in the end is take his input under advisement (we do agree on things on occasion), and then do what you feel is right for the purposes of your own game.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Something you need to understand about garhkal is that he is diametrically opposed to altering the RAW, regardless of reason. Things may be added to the RAW (new stats, new Force powers, etc), but the RAW itself is inviolate. In this case, he's balking at the idea of changing Danger Sense, even if such a change would be an incredibly simple fix to permit what is seen in the films. The only fix he'd be willing to accept would be an additional power - call it Sense Others In Danger, for sake of discussion - with Danger Sense as a prerequisite.

He and I have gone round and round and round over pretty much anything you can imagine, and the only thing you can do in the end is take his input under advisement (we do agree on things on occasion), and then do what you feel is right for the purposes of your own game.


Which has been a great source of my entertainment over the years. I thank you both. Cool

Back on topic:

I don't think I have any problem with a Jedi being able to sense danger with relation to someone close to them, or even someone they've been tasked with protecting. I feel like this sticks with the spirit of the setting very well. Jedi were guardians and protectors of peace and justice throughout the galaxy. Kinda hard to protect anyone else if you can only sense danger to yourself. It is a rather selfish restriction on the use of the force by a group of people who proclaim themselves to be selfless.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I don't think I have any problem with a Jedi being able to sense danger with relation to someone close to them, or even someone they've been tasked with protecting. I feel like this sticks with the spirit of the setting very well. Jedi were guardians and protectors of peace and justice throughout the galaxy. Kinda hard to protect anyone else if you can only sense danger to yourself. It is a rather selfish restriction on the use of the force by a group of people who proclaim themselves to be selfless.

All that, and because it is film canon.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thought...

If using the Force Attribute rule, could a Jedi use Enhance Attribute to enhance their Force Attribute?
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Interesting thought...

If using the Force Attribute rule, could a Jedi use Enhance Attribute to enhance their Force Attribute?


My knee-jerk reaction is a no. Between powers like Concentration and Emptiness, I feel like the Force has plenty of opportunities for someone to stack bonuses on it.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I've long been a proponent of the idea that certain powers should come up "automatically" (i.e. the GM should tell the player to roll Sense for certain powers in much the same way that non-FS characters should be told to roll Perception or Search, or when rolling initiative). Unfortunately, WEG's RAW for Force use focuses almost entirely on conscious use, treating the Force more like Spell Magic from D&D


In my sessions I use "Visions and premonitions" rules (p.149 in REUP) as a passive, non-conscious Force manifestations (sometimes hidden rolls for player's sense skill).

CRMcNeill wrote:
If using the Force Attribute rule, could a Jedi use Enhance Attribute to enhance their Force Attribute?

Well, in this case, yes.
With Extranormal rules, one can gain bonus to:
1) Normal skill
2) Normal attribute
3) Force skill
4) Force attribute
5) Normal skill modifier
6) Force skill modifier

The difference is in difficulty number for each of the above options to gain bonus of 1D (attributes are more difficult to boost)

PS. Combining boosts is possible, but difficulty numbers are in this case cumulative.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
In my sessions I use "Visions and premonitions" rules (p.149 in REUP) as a passive, non-conscious Force manifestations (sometimes hidden rolls for player's sense skill).

To me, the "Visions & Premonitions" rule is just a Band-Aid that doesn't really solve the underlying problem. Basing it on a dice roll allows the character's own attributes to decide whether or not, for example, a sense of danger is just passed off as nerves, or if a vision is just dismissed as a bad dream or something. It's an all-or-nothing approach that eliminates the uncertainty that's factored in by the dice roll.

Now, I should clarify that I do not think all Sense powers should be "reactive" (i.e. rolled at GM instruction, rather than the player's decision). Off the top of my head, the only official powers I would say qualify for this would be Danger Sense and Sense Force, as these are the only powers used in the films that appear to activate without a conscious decision by the characters. There may be room for others to be used in this fashion, as well, but those two are the most obvious.

As to how it would work, using Danger Sense as an example, if the character has Danger Sense as a known power, the GM would just tell the player to roll the character's Sense dice without telling them why. If the roll beats Moderate Difficulty (the Difficulty for Danger Sense) then the power is used as described, with the GM describing the eminent threat. If the character hasn't learned Danger Sense, just increase the Difficulty number by +10 or +15.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Now, I should clarify that I do not think all Sense powers should be "reactive" (i.e. rolled at GM instruction, rather than the player's decision). Off the top of my head, the only official powers I would say qualify for this would be Danger Sense and Sense Force, as these are the only powers used in the films that appear to activate without a conscious decision by the characters. There may be room for others to be used in this fashion, as well, but those two are the most obvious.

As to how it would work, using Danger Sense as an example, if the character has Danger Sense as a known power, the GM would just tell the player to roll the character's Sense dice without telling them why. If the roll beats Moderate Difficulty (the Difficulty for Danger Sense) then the power is used as described, with the GM describing the eminent threat. If the character hasn't learned Danger Sense, just increase the Difficulty number by +10 or +15


Don't forget Post Cognition. When Obi-wan feels the death of Alderaan on the Falcon.

I'm all for the GM rolling a Jedi's sense skill for passive use. In some of my Jedi-centric games, I've rolled a character's Sense skill in place of Perception or Search checks to see if they notice something as a way to reflect the Jedi's sense of their surroundings.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, just being Force Sensitive is enough to trigger something out of ordinary.
"He can see things before they happen". And this was reflected in later SW RPG versions.

Raven Redstar wrote:
I don't think I have any problem with a Jedi being able to sense danger with relation to someone close to them, or even someone they've been tasked with protecting. I feel like this sticks with the spirit of the setting very well. Jedi were guardians and protectors of peace and justice throughout the galaxy. Kinda hard to protect anyone else if you can only sense danger to yourself. It is a rather selfish restriction on the use of the force by a group of people who proclaim themselves to be selfless.


In RotS, even selfish Darth Sidious sensed that his apprentice was in danger.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
Don't forget Post Cognition. When Obi-wan feels the death of Alderaan on the Falcon.

I just double-checked the description of Postcognition, and I'm not seeing how it would apply here. If anything, a sudden disturbance in the Force like the destruction of an inhabited planet would be more apt to fall under Sense Force.

Quote:
I'm all for the GM rolling a Jedi's sense skill for passive use. In some of my Jedi-centric games, I've rolled a character's Sense skill in place of Perception or Search checks to see if they notice something as a way to reflect the Jedi's sense of their surroundings.

IMO, there's room for both. Non-FS characters would normally use Perception or Search reactively in order to catch a key detail they weren't actively looking for (simply by virtue of having their eyes open). I'd restrict the use of Sense to things either not perceptible by normal senses, or as a minor premonition, such as if a character missed an important detail and got a mental "nudge" from the Force to try and look again. Maybe a homebrew power that allows a character to re-roll a previous Perception / Search roll to see if they spotted what they missed on the first roll...
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Well, just being Force Sensitive is enough to trigger something out of ordinary.
"He can see things before they happen". And this was reflected in later SW RPG versions.


If you add in rules for a Force Attribute, then young Ani could start off rolling his untrained Sense skill at 4 or 5D. Which would reflect his ability to sense things before they happen.

Darklighter79 wrote:
In RotS, even selfish Darth Sidious sensed that his apprentice was in danger.


Ah, yes! I forgot about that. Good catch!

CRMcNeill wrote:
I just double-checked the description of Postcognition, and I'm not seeing how it would apply here. If anything, a sudden disturbance in the Force like the destruction of an inhabited planet would be more apt to fall under Sense Force.


You're absolutely correct. My apologies.

CRMcNeill wrote:
IMO, there's room for both. Non-FS characters would normally use Perception or Search reactively in order to catch a key detail they weren't actively looking for (simply by virtue of having their eyes open). I'd restrict the use of Sense to things either not perceptible by normal senses, or as a minor premonition, such as if a character missed an important detail and got a mental "nudge" from the Force to try and look again. Maybe a homebrew power that allows a character to re-roll a previous Perception / Search roll to see if they spotted what they missed on the first roll...


Sure, I do the same with non-force sensitives.

You're more than welcome to create a rule or power for it, but my players and I have seemed pretty satisfied with the seat of the pants rulings. In my most recent games the group has been all Jedi or none. So I don't mind instructing them to roll their Sense in a given situation. A lot of times they haven't a clue what it's for, and it works. Very Happy
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't remember if I've mentioned this here or not, but I came up with a rule to address how even untrained Force Sensitives seem to display specific aptitudes, or powers that hint at the possibility of Force Sensitivity.

Basically, for every D the character has in the Force Attribute, they may select one Force Power which is a "natural talent." Even if untrained in Control, Sense or Alter, they may use their Attribute dice to attempt to use the power, even though they haven't learned it yet. Once the Force user has Skill Dice in the appropriate Force skills, they may now use any of their "Natural Talent" Force powers at -5 Difficulty.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

IMO, there's room for both. Non-FS characters would normally use Perception or Search reactively in order to catch a key detail they weren't actively looking for (simply by virtue of having their eyes open). I'd restrict the use of Sense to things either not perceptible by normal senses, or as a minor premonition, such as if a character missed an important detail and got a mental "nudge" from the Force to try and look again. Maybe a homebrew power that allows a character to re-roll a previous Perception / Search roll to see if they spotted what they missed on the first roll...


How would that work with rolling search vs sneak for ambushes?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
How would that work with rolling search vs sneak for ambushes?

Danger Sense, basically. I think the situation I described was more for non-combat situations when the character missed something crucial to the plot and the GM was looking for a safety net.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
How would that work with rolling search vs sneak for ambushes?

Danger Sense, basically. I think the situation I described was more for non-combat situations when the character missed something crucial to the plot and the GM was looking for a safety net.


So if the jedi in question doesn't have danger sense, would they get that 'second chance warning'?
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