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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm. Doesn't quite match with what we are envisioning, but I can see the resemblance. This is more of a subspace broadcast station, rather than a point-to-point relay...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Hmm. Doesn't quite match with what we are envisioning, but I can see the resemblance. This is more of a subspace broadcast station, rather than a point-to-point relay... |
But it's possible for a broadcast station to act as a relay.
Let's say the station broadcasts to something that receives the broadcast (otherwise why broadcast?).
Now let's say that the reciving point can record the message and link up to another boradcast station that can send the message further along.
And so on unit the message reaches it's destination. The message is probably encrypted to prevent other people from playing it, and directional broadcasting would certainly help in that regard, too. But it would work.
And the slight delay between broadcasts could give long range holocommuncations a slight lag. The top of the line stuff has faster devices that can stream the broadcast live, while the slower devices add a small fraction of a second lag for each station on the route.
That would work, and give the results you guys seem to be looking for. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Hmm. Doesn't quite match with what we are envisioning, but I can see the resemblance. This is more of a subspace broadcast station, rather than a point-to-point relay... |
Well, it's called a 'relay station'. Given that the "broadcast ship" mentioned in the adventure needs to slice into the relay station by way of a physical connection, suggests something about its functionality.
Of course, I realize that it's designed as a plot device, and probably didn't envision a more coherent understanding of communications networking that we're developing, but let's pretend that we're trying to distill a coherent original intent.
I'm guessing this: Since the Imperial authorities in the adventure (I'm reading this in a cursory fashion, and might be mistaken) were attempting a covert operation of implicating the rebels by way of a real-seeming news broadcast, they were using illegitimate means to slice into the subspace network of the Rayter sector. The relay-station network is probably meant to be a fairly secure network without the ability of third parties to slice into them wirelessly, or to otherwise use them without being traced. The Imperials wanted to cover up their activity and their false-flag "news" broadcast, which means they had to go through extraordinary means to broadcast their message.
The sector has a network of 68 space-based relay stations, only eight of which have broadcasting capability, in addition to six planet-based broadcast stations.
Rayter sector is a bit of an out-of-the-way area on the Outer Rim, attempting to connect itself by way of Subspace the way that the Republic did with the HoloNet. As such, it's a poor-man's substitute, but it probably works decently, given that it only has to cross the distance of one sector at most. The (64-8=) 56 stations that can't broadcast, are probably pure relay stations that can receive and narrow-cast signals between eachother, but not broadcast in their area. This is probably because they are situated in deep space where there are no inhabited planets to care about.
The six broadcasting stations are probably located sufficiently close to a number of inhabited planets, whereas the planet-based broadcasters are located on planets that are somewhat more isolated.
There is little detail on the Rayter Sector, other than it's list of planets in Wookieepedia. I seemed to have ignored it when I was building my nav computer, even though I remember referencing this adventure when doing so, as it mentioned the travel times between some systems. I seem to have taken greater liberty with the neighboring Koradin Sector. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Hmm. Doesn't quite match with what we are envisioning, but I can see the resemblance. This is more of a subspace broadcast station, rather than a point-to-point relay... |
But it's possible for a broadcast station to act as a relay.
Let's say the station broadcasts to something that receives the broadcast (otherwise why broadcast?). |
Yes - I think it's useful to distinguish between broad- and narrow-casting. The broadcast goes in all directions, free for anyone to pick up (provided that they have access), kind of like WiFi.
However, narrow-casting means that you can send a signal further and/or at a lower energy cost, and also more securely. The 56 relay stations without broadcasting capability are probably just links along a narrow-cast chain of relay stations - not unlike telephone-wire poles. They're basically power-plants that can intercept and re-narrowcast to the next station. The one referred to in the adventure is one of the 8 that has broadcasting capability, and is thus a bit bigger.
Assuming it has the same broadcasting reach of a Star Destroyer (100LYs), there are probably a number of Rayter's inhabited systems nearby, even if there are no inhabited worlds in the Laim system proper. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly. Here in my home town, the local TV station has a broadcast facility set up on the peak of a mountain west of town. The station uses a linear microwave signal to transmit its signal up to the broadcast facility, from which it is broadcast far and wide.
Basically, sending a transmission is not entirely the same thing as making a broadcast.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | Exactly. Here in my home town, the local TV station has a broadcast facility set up on the peak of a mountain west of town. The station uses a linear microwave signal to transmit its signal up to the broadcast facility, from which it is broadcast far and wide.
Basically, sending a transmission is not entirely the same thing as making a broadcast. |
Okay, so we're of one mind on this subject? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, now I just need to recall what I had in mind when I started this subject. A great deal will depend on the sort of sector a sector group is dealing with, and that sector's internal layout.
In a sparse Outer-Rim sector, like the Rayter Sector, where there's nothing but a subspace network, that network probably becomes strategically important for maintaining the organizational capabilities of the sector group.
It would be interesting if we could see how big (about) 100 LYs is. If we go by this map, which forms the basis of what was published in the Essential Atlas, 100LYs is nothing. It's two pixels on that 2350x2250 pixel galaxy map. Even a Star Destroyer would be utterly dependent on a communications network to be within comm range of the fleet, if it was dependent on subspace communications alone. It's unfathomable that it would not have narrow-casting hyperwave/HoloComm capabilities. But what about the smaller Imperial ships, which make up the bulk of the fleet? Those without hyperwave narrowcasting emitters become dependent on the ships that do have those capabilities.
Also, if hyperwave communications are narrow-beam, then it becomes quite tricky to communicate, in that you need to be able to know where to point your comm signal. Or, is all of that automated by computers?
Lines of command and communication just got really interesting!
But think about what that means for the rebellion, which doesn't have that comm networking without slicers hacking into the hyper networks controlled by the Empire. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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You may hate me for this...
The OB Chapter (Navy Systems Force) says the following..."A systems force is responsible for several systems, the admiral being in charge of organizing and coordinating all of his ships throughout a sphere of command spanning hundreds of light years and dozens of worlds, the normal method of communications being no faster than the ships themselves." Does this mean that subspace comm networks aren't "normal"? Or that they are sufficiently slow that it is ultimately simpler to send a fast courier to the other systems with messages? It is known that fast courier ships serve as "mail haulers" in the SWU...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | You may hate me for this...
The OB Chapter (Navy Systems Force) says the following..."A systems force is responsible for several systems, the admiral being in charge of organizing and coordinating all of his ships throughout a sphere of command spanning hundreds of light years and dozens of worlds, the normal method of communications being no faster than the ships themselves." Does this mean that subspace comm networks aren't "normal"? Or that they are sufficiently slow that it is ultimately simpler to send a fast courier to the other systems with messages? It is known that fast courier ships serve as "mail haulers" in the SWU... |
No hatred in the slightest. It makes perfect sense, if we assume that most communication happens over subspace and even dial-up hyperwave. We have already assumed that subspace is slower than hyperspace. The 'speeds' referred to in your quote probably refer to hyperdrives.
Just because we presume that large vessels like Star Destroyers are hyperwave/HoloNet capable doesn't mean that this is true for all the smaller ships.
It just reinforces the notion that lines of communication are a very interesting dimension of this construct we're imagining together.  |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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So are you thinking that the travel speeds for subspace comms are basically no faster than a ship with a x1 or x2 hyperdrive? Not that I find that outside the realm of possibility: I just want to make sure we are on the same page.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:00 am Post subject: |
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It's probably a range limitation. MAybe a subspace transciever only has a range of 25 light years or so,. Thus a ship (or holonet) is needed send a message to a place 100 LY away.
Considering how big the SW universe is, and how fast the ships travel, subspace might only be good for local transmissions. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | It's probably a range limitation. MAybe a subspace transciever only has a range of 25 light years or so,. Thus a ship (or holonet) is needed send a message to a place 100 LY away.
Considering how big the SW universe is, and how fast the ships travel, subspace might only be good for local transmissions. |
That's why we're talking about a subspace relay network. It'd be similar to the Holonet, but on a far more localized scale (i.e. within a sector).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | So are you thinking that the travel speeds for subspace comms are basically no faster than a ship with a x1 or x2 hyperdrive? Not that I find that outside the realm of possibility: I just want to make sure we are on the same page. |
Well, I'm not sure how literal we need to take that quote. I definitely think there's room for couriers, but more so on the Rebellion side than the Imperial side.
The thing about sending a message rather than a courier is that most Imperial ships don't have a complement of hyperspace-capable vessels. So, if you're on patrol and you want to let the fleet HQ know "Hey, I'm out in location X, checking stuff out and I'm not seeing anything. I'll be heading to location Y next", then sending a courier (ie. a ship of the line) to deliver that message is simply an inefficient use of resources, even if a x1 hyperspace ship might get to fleet HQ faster than a subspace message. Also, that ship of the line would have to get back to its line.
We've already thought about the ranges of subspace communications arrays - tying them to the range of the sensors (r/2 for starfighter scale craft). I'm thinking we tie narrow-cast subspace to the 'search' range, as you suggested on pg. 2. I think we can assume that all ships have subspace broadcasting capabilities.
Now, what about hyperwave communications capability? From what I'm reading (on the Wookiee, so consider the source), hyperwave-capable ships are quite rare and large. Even in the published Dark Empire Sourcebook, under the Modular Taskforce Cruiser that you've been thinking about, it mentions a communications ship role, though it (annoyingly) doesn't write up a module for it. It's good that you added it to your list.
There's the Imperial Communications Ship, which is a super star destroyer, which is mentioned in the novelization of the Return of the Jedi, but was left on the cutting-room floor during the editing of the movie. This seems to suggest that HoloNet is only for really big ships. I can see the interpretation that even ISDs don't do HoloNet, though I'm not sure I share that interpretation.
It might be that a communications ship is there as a mobile transmission relay platform, having "dozens of HoloNet transceivers" (according to Starships of the Galaxy. Incidentally, I'm going to bite the bullet and buy the first edition of this book. Given how much these tend to cost, I'm hoping it will be worth it. I'm hoping it will help us with a number of our projects.
Now maybe there's also a difference between being able to transmit and receive. A ship might not have to have a huge power output capability to receive a HoloNet transmission, but it has to be significant (larger than an ISD) in order to send a HoloNet transmission.
That leaves us with Hyperwave transmission capability somewhere in between, but it'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on what those sizes may be. There's a hyperwave transmitter aboard the Kuari Princess, which is the Mon Cal luxury liner from Riders of the Maelstrom.
Last edited by Mikael Hasselstein on Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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think the Lambda-class shuttle would make a great courier ship. It's small, fast, hyperspace capable, and very well armed for it's size and function.
The Empire could routinely add non urgent information files to the shuttles and pass them along as offers and cargo move from one ship to another, rather that waste holonet bandwidth. |
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