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Damage: Too little?
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NutUrFatha
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:27 am    Post subject: Damage: Too little? Reply with quote

Hello there,

recently, we played another session of SW D6.

We noticed that many times even when we hit an enemy with STRENGTH of 4D or more, the damage would not be enough to make any damage at all (e. g. shocked).

So, the enemy was HIT, but the shot did not make damage. How does that make any sense?

A more rediculous example was when we used hit locations. If you roll unlucky, even a blaster bolt to the face will not do any damage if the enemy has above average STRENGTH of, let's say 4D or 5D.

Any thoughts, suggestions, experiences on that? It's frustrating to the players to hit someone without achieving any damage... one starts to wonder what blasters are for, really.

We resolved it by making up rediculous ways of taking blaster bolts to the earlobes, or to the finger tip, or whatever, to justify why a 5D-Blaster caused so little damage on a 4D-Enemy.

The luck element of dice really backfires sometimes here...


Thanks!
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Xain Arke
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, high Strength enemies can be a problem, but it works for high strength players also.

There is a hit location table in the 2nd edition book - the blue vader cover - that gives varied damage for called shots,
head shots gain +1D damage. so you could use that table

The Rules of Engagement book has a more deadly optional rule for damage, which if I remember correctly increases damage by how well
the character hit the target.

You could give those a try if it is an ongoing problem, but in general, even the toughest enemy is going to fail a soak roll eventually.
In the meantime it's good practice for your players to think creatively how to take down such an enemy, rather than just hosing them
with blaster fire
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thedemonapostle
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ive run into this issue quite a lot as both gm and as player over the years.

my best suggestion is less roll playing and more role playing. rely less on the dice and more on your imagination.

but some suggestions on a party taking out a NPC with 4D strength.

-mob tackle

-use weapons that do more damage.

-ramming speed! vehicle vs npc.

-pull a firefly and con the "jayne cobb" to join your side

no matter what you end up doing, have fun and be creative.
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Phalanks Balas
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, effectiveness of weapons was soon a problem in my group. Even if we use the optional rule of adding damage when roling a high touching score (+1 to damage roll for each 5 point over the defend score) we had this result : no damage on target.
To fixe that we changed the damage roll : roll 2D + fixed value.
fixed values depend on technology of the weapon and number of dice left.
exemple : a blaster with 5D of damage. GM roll 2D + 15. fixed value is calculated as follow, dice left = 3 muliplied by 5 (technology level of space weapon).
Vibro weapon use 5 also as technology level.
Slug thrower or fire weapon use 4.
archaïc weapon like sword or arrows and brawling don't use fixed value but roll all dice.
With is optional rule, weapons become more dangerous and hold-out blasters seems to become usefull (you no more need to carry a E-web to one shot kill a stormtrooper).
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generally that's a feature and not a bug of using a 4D STR NPC. If your NPC has a strength that high, you're usually trying to make it really hard to get them to go down, and requiring the PCs to think differently than the simple "point and shoot" resolution.

Those resolutions might be combining fire, creating a more environmental hazard (like rolling a boulder off a hill), hitting them over with a vehicle, etc.

Now, some people also have a house rule about getting hit and brushing off damage three times in one encounter. They rule it as the cumulative effect of multiple hits is that are either unconscious or stunned from the experience.

So, there are some options there.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Damage: Too little? Reply with quote

NutUrFatha wrote:
Hello there,

recently, we played another session of SW D6.

We noticed that many times even when we hit an enemy with STRENGTH of 4D or more, the damage would not be enough to make any damage at all (e. g. shocked).

So, the enemy was HIT, but the shot did not make damage. How does that make any sense?

A more rediculous example was when we used hit locations. If you roll unlucky, even a blaster bolt to the face will not do any damage if the enemy has above average STRENGTH of, let's say 4D or 5D.

Any thoughts, suggestions, experiences on that? It's frustrating to the players to hit someone without achieving any damage... one starts to wonder what blasters are for, really.

We resolved it by making up rediculous ways of taking blaster bolts to the earlobes, or to the finger tip, or whatever, to justify why a 5D-Blaster caused so little damage on a 4D-Enemy.

The luck element of dice really backfires sometimes here...


Damage/Wound system modifications

I address that in my damage/wound mods. The greater chance of getting at least a stun does have a cumulative effect that stuns already have in RAW. Scroll up from the linked post to see the background and thought that went into it.
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As was suggested, use 4D Strength NPCs sparingly, unless you specifically want the bad guys to be more challenging to take out.

4D for Characters makes them more likely to survive doing something stupid and getting into a fight they shouldn't have. If the player/players with that high of Strength feel they need to unnecessarily not dodge attacks because they have 4D in Stregnth, bring in more reinforcements. Overwhelm the PCs so that they get the hint that staying and fighting is NOT the thing to do.

But for direct changes to the damage, I suggest using aspects that are either already in the books or using simple fixes.

Combined Actions work well at stacking damage and making that 4D Str character more likely to go down to injury.

Stuns on hits: There was a version that said that ANY hit that occurred, even if it did 0 damage, still stunned the target, giving them a -1D to their actions that round/next round.

I'm not sure where I first saw it, but I've used the "quality of hit" bonus damage in my games for years. Instead of every 5 points over the required hit number, I give a +1 damage for every 3 points over the required hit number. So if a PC didn't dodge because they have 4D Str, and the bad guy hits with a roll of 21, they would have exceeded the to hit by 11 points, or a +3 bonus to damage (just 1 success number short of another bonus damage). And I don't change those bonuses to bonus dice. I just keep it at flat bonus. So a 3D blaster that rolls a 10 would become a 13 with the bonus.

That gives highly skilled characters the better chance of inflicting noticeable damage to enemies, but also works for enemies getting bonus damage against beefy Wookiees .
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Damage: Too little? Reply with quote

NutUrFatha wrote:
Hello there,

recently, we played another session of SW D6.

We noticed that many times even when we hit an enemy with STRENGTH of 4D or more, the damage would not be enough to make any damage at all (e. g. shocked).

So, the enemy was HIT, but the shot did not make damage. How does that make any sense?
The luck element of dice really backfires sometimes here...


Thanks!


Did you ever read how 1e handled it? IIRC< even if you 'soaked' all the damage, you still got at a minimum, stunned..

But there's been MANY threads over something called the "Blaster proof wookiee", where PCs (and thus NPCS) can often be so immune to damage, to really challenge THEM, you can wind up being OVERBEARING towards everyone else in the party..

Xain Arke wrote:
Yeah, high Strength enemies can be a problem, but it works for high strength players also.


Yup. There's MORE often instances, where players will be the 'blaster-proof ones', than there will be for imperials to get that way.
When you have a base 3d str (as many templates do), wearing good armor, you can get 5d of soak.. Add in cover bonuses, and that can go up.

Xain Arke wrote:
The Rules of Engagement book has a more deadly optional rule for damage, which if I remember correctly increases damage by how well
the character hit the target.


True. There's a few methods to represent that.
Option A - Dice pooling. Essentially you take a few dice out of your to hit pool, to add to damage. You can do it one for one, or most often, two die taken out, adds one to damage.
GREAT for fighters shooting at capital ships, or characters shooting at walkers!

Option B - has it where if you hit, the difference between the to hit roll, and the target number to hit, gets you bonuses to damage.

thedemonapostle wrote:
ive run into this issue quite a lot as both gm and as player over the years.

my best suggestion is less roll playing and more role playing. rely less on the dice and more on your imagination.

but some suggestions on a party taking out a NPC with 4D strength.

-mob tackle

-use weapons that do more damage.


Or try to use weapons that don't target someone's strength. Such as flash bangs, tangle ropes, bolas and such.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my game I ruled that soaking blaster damage is based on overall size not a strength score.

There's no logical reason that a bodybuilder can get shot with a rifle and have a better chance of living than a thin dude...assuming they are both humans.

As a result, All human and human-type beings roll 2D6 to soak blaster damage regardless of body.

Blasters became valuable weapons again. Even the light and hold-out blasters.

Truly larger beings get another die...like wookiees and gammoreans. The rationale being more surface area is a less chance of hitting a vital.
Body is still used to soak brawling, melee, falling and other sorts of damage, including a blaster on stun setting.

It's not perfect but it worked for us and kept the gunplay quick, decisive and violent. Characters went for cover and used it.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always saw the Strength attribute as being more that just muscles, after all the stamin skill falls under this.

To me this means endurance, and in that regards a person with high enough endurance, mass, and also muscles would actually have a higher chance of surviving damage.

so I think to be a system where you use the human 2D6 soak like suggestd would be fine, if anything above 2D6 in Strength gives a bonus.

ALL Humans have a 2D6 base soak, a person with 3D strength will have a slightly higher one, maybbe add a +2

at 4D this is about close to the limits of what human can have, not just in strenght but also in the over all endurance, and this IMO should give a +1D for 3D6 soak etc.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:

There's no logical reason that a bodybuilder can get shot with a rifle and have a better chance of living than a thin dude...assuming they are both humans.


Funny thing, I actually did some basic research into this a few years ago. People with higher muscle mass tend to have better recovery from gunshot wounds than do people with lower muscle mass.

Now, that's probably due to a whole host of other health factor and extrinsic risk factors. But there is at least some small correlation.

Granted, that recovery ability is pretty negligible compared to how the D6 system works with brushing off getting shot. A bullet is not going to ricochet off of your totally ripped 4D pecs like it might in D6. But I thought it was still an interesting real-world correlation.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked using a version of d6 Space's brawling damage for damage reduction... everyone starts at 1D, and gets +1 per die of Strength above that.

So, an average human (2D strength) resists damage with 1D+2... almost the same as right now. A max-strength Wookiee (6D) resists with 3D... 1D+ 2D from 6 dice of strength (3D attribute = 3 pips = 1D increase).

It makes armor, with even a +1D to resist damage, much more valuable.
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