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Disney to restore Sebastian Shaw as Force Ghost in RotJ
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Frankly, I'm sick and tired of being viewed as a leper in the Star Wars fan community for liking the prequels and altered versions of the classic films. ALL the versions of ALL the FILMS are the primary media of the franchise and the basis of all the rest of it. It should be considered acceptable to like them all, but I'm the one who has to be crucified for not giving in to the Dark Side and conforming to the worldwide bash-fest.


I have my own preferences, but I've got bigger things to worry about than how much nerd rage I can muster. I don't see a reason to make someone sit in the back of the bus because they like the PT better.

No matter what they say, I love ya, Whill!
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RyanDarkstar
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill, when I read your observations on the age of Sir Alec Guinness and Sebastian Shaw in the original trilogy, it finally made sense to me why the prequels seemed a little wonky to me. Until the prequels, I had always assumed that the Empire had been around longer and that Anakin was a bit older (at least in his 30's) when he progressively fell to the Dark Side. Naturally, Obi-wan would have been older as well.

This is something that's caused me discomfort with the new Star Trek movie series as well: the characters' ages don't really gel with their original series counterparts. While I understand casting for both franchises comes down to acting over physical appearance, it's pretty distracting visually.

And for what it's worth, I prefer Shaw at the end of Jedi from an original trilogy standpoint, but I'm okay with Hayden saga-wise. I think that's why there's been such a debate from fans. It's like you have to pick original trilogy vs prequel trilogy vs saga. At the end of the day, watch what you want to watch and enjoy.
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Zarm R'keeg
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
When you say "the folks who dislike the change have logical objections (and reasoning behind their position) which is just as concrete" you seem to be generalizing all the purists as logical and rational as you and some of the other purists here. Have you honestly never encountered any irrational folks who didn't like the change? And you have never encountered extreme fanboy rage that happen to share your position (but lack your largely kind, rational demeanor)? Really?


No, you're right. I perceived a statement of 'all purists are irrational,' and was reacting against that- as I believe that there are many who are entirely rational. But no... not everyone; not by a long shot.

Whill wrote:
But saying that Lucas' prequels should have conformed to the apparent age of the Sebastian Shaw's Anakin ghost is beside the point here. I have no disrespect for Sebastian Shaw. I have no problem with a 76-year-old actor playing the melty-face make-up unmasked Vader.


Sorry, wasn't trying to say that you did. Just trying to provide respect for Shaw as one of the reasons for people disliking the change that you might not have considered.


Whill wrote:
The Hayden-ghost version was not released until 2004, and everyone knew who he was from Episode II (2002). Film viewers not liking Hayden and not knowing him are two different things. So there was no bad filmmaking because Lucas didn't actually go back in time and insert prequel-Anakin into the original RotJ he made.


No, but ROTJ still has to stand as a film in its modern incarnation- and it's still bad film-craft to randomly have an unfamilliar actor in a role that doesn't otherwise exist in the film whilst conflicting with the portrayal/actor that is presented in the film just minutes before. To viewer A who is watching the whole saga or knows Star Wars, maybe. But to viewer B who is just watching ROTJ, or just the OT, or the films in their release-order, (and on basic film-making principles in general), it is a disconnect. And while ROTJ is part of the Star Wars saga and familiarity with the other films are assumed, it's not good filmmaking principle (and handicaps ROTJ as a stand-alone film) to throw in something that requires familiarity with the other film for its emotional resonance, rather than providing that from the material within the film itself (which the original version does). That, to me, is why it's bad film-making.


Whill wrote:
both versions of the Force Ghost scene are available (yes on DVD), so fans can still choose whichever version they prefer better. Again, there was no time-travel. No one's childhood was ruined by anthing external to themselves. All copies of the Sebastian Shaw ghost have not been erased from existence.


Indeed. I think many fans are irked because while both exist on DVD, they are certainly not given equal remastering treatment (if they had that, I think it would be a lot easier for purists to live and let live- but the restorations and hi-def remastering and the like are given solely to the altered versions)... but I don't think anyone was arguing that that the Shaw version doesn't exist. Merely why some consider the Hayden change a bad idea in the first place and the Shaw version a good idea, regardless of whether both are available (which, thankfully, they are!)


Whill wrote:
Zarm, I'm so glad it was you who provided an opposing point of view, but despite you being one of my favorite Pit users and not trying to offend anyone, I still find some of your statements offensive.


Well, I am sorry for that. It was not my intention.

Perhaps I misinterpreted. Statements like "The other thing that purists don't register is that Sebastian Shaw wasn't right for the Force Ghost scene in the first place." and "It is obvious that purists are really disgruntled with..." seemed to imply assumptions about purists, and only a single, logical position that they were willfully ignorant of (and making a number of less-than-glowing statements about them) that I interpreted in the manner you took exception to. Clearly, that was an incorrect understanding of your words, and I apologize. I get that you were responding to trash talk elsewhere; often, in the absence of that talk in the same location, the response to it elsewhere, without the context of what's being responded to, can come off as out-of-the-blue attacks or trash-talk itself, which is I think what happened here. (And in other of our conversations.) Again, I am sorry to cause offense- as 3PO says, "Oh, he excels at that, sir..." but it is never my intention.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarm, you admitted those 3 things that I said fans were disgruntled with were true. I didn't say those were the only things they were disgruntled with, or that they didn't have any other thoughts on the matter. I've sadly become fairly well-versed in purist rantings, and the Anakin's ghost appearing as a 'What If he was fully human and whole when he died' being too old is something I have never heard a purist address in their laundry list of rational reasons why Lucas is the devil. 8)

And it is nearly impossible to watch any Star Wars movie in a vacuum as if the entire rest of the franchise doesn't exist, so I'll bet it is extremely rare for anyone nowadays to watch RotJ by itself without exposure to the other Star Wars films. New casual viewers (the ones who would supposedly be confused) are most likely to watch the whole film saga in episode numerical order, so it's hard to imagine the very few people living under a rock that would really have no clue who that young Jedi ghost is. And even for them, Yoda died earlier in that same movie, Obi-Wan appeared as a ghost earlier in that same movie, and Anakin just died a few minutes earlier than all three ghosts. You'd have to be pretty dim to not figure out who that third ghost it supposed to be. This very common purist criticism of not knowing who that that young Jedi ghost was is made by fans who know d@mn well who it is and just don't like the change. So it comes across as a desperate attempt to criticize just for for the sake of being negative.

Live and let live.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanDarkstar wrote:
Whill, when I read your observations on the age of Sir Alec Guinness and Sebastian Shaw in the original trilogy, it finally made sense to me why the prequels seemed a little wonky to me. Until the prequels, I had always assumed that the Empire had been around longer and that Anakin was a bit older (at least in his 30's) when he progressively fell to the Dark Side. Naturally, Obi-wan would have been older as well.

You're not the only one. We all thought the Empire would have existed for a while before Luke and Leia were born, and Anakin was older. Expectation is a key aspect of trilogy appreciation. Not only did fans have many years to imagine what the prequels would be like, the EU further contributed to issue. I think Disney did a smart thing by announcing the existing EU was being decanonized to give fans as much time a possible to accept that things will be different than their expectations.

RyanDarkstar wrote:
This is something that's caused me discomfort with the new Star Trek movie series as well: the characters' ages don't really gel with their original series counterparts. While I understand casting for both franchises comes down to acting over physical appearance, it's pretty distracting visually.

Go to this post and scroll down to (2) to address that. Feel free to bump that thread if you have anything to say about it.

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=143925#143925

RyanDarkstar wrote:
And for what it's worth, I prefer Shaw at the end of Jedi from an original trilogy standpoint, but I'm okay with Hayden saga-wise. I think that's why there's been such a debate from fans. It's like you have to pick original trilogy vs prequel trilogy vs saga. At the end of the day, watch what you want to watch and enjoy.

Amen, brother.

cheshire wrote:
Whill wrote:
Frankly, I'm sick and tired of being viewed as a leper in the Star Wars fan community for liking the prequels and altered versions of the classic films. ALL the versions of ALL the FILMS are the primary media of the franchise and the basis of all the rest of it. It should be considered acceptable to like them all, but I'm the one who has to be crucified for not giving in to the Dark Side and conforming to the worldwide bash-fest.

I have my own preferences, but I've got bigger things to worry about than how much nerd rage I can muster. I don't see a reason to make someone sit in the back of the bus because they like the PT better.

No matter what they say, I love ya, Whill!

Thanks, back at ya. There is no doubt you are a better Star Wars fan and man than I am. I have a lot of practice at dealing with all the hatred over the years, but I shouldn't have to and it just gets old.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to point out something in Whill's defense: It's not just the internet. I've had discussions with co-workers and SW fans in person, and the nerd rage towards Lucas seems to be pretty common out there. And it gets frustrating. Imagine that you put hundreds or thousands of hours into this incredible campaign, and at the end your players shook their fists at you and shouted how you had destroyed their lives forever! That's (more or less) the reaction that so many fanboys seem to have at the creator of this thing they supposedly love.

One thing that occurred to me during this discussion that could have easily alleviated this whole issue: if the Force ghost had retained (initially) the image of Sebastian Shaw, then morphed into the younger Anakin.

Personally the change doesn't bother me at all, but the above would have made it clear to viewers who didn't follow who this was (and given that 'respect' back to Shaw, if necessary). That said, I really doubt there were ever many viewers who were seeing this movie all by itself. And if they were really that curious, they could certainly sit down and watch all six films. I don't at all find it to be "bad film-making".

Those of us who love the prequel films and appreciate (at least most of) the changes just get a bit tired of all of the venom and vitriol. Like the Twitter account Colbert quoted, constantly being bombarded with "Hilt on light saber stupid and impractical childhood ruined everything ruined!!!" does get really old. Smile
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarm R'keeg wrote:
I think many fans are irked because while both exist on DVD, they are certainly not given equal remastering treatment (if they had that, I think it would be a lot easier for purists to live and let live- but the restorations and hi-def remastering and the like are given solely to the altered versions)...

I admit I do not understand the purist desire to have the original versions of the classic trilogy digitally restored, remastered in hi-def, etc. Digital films and High Definition did not exist in the 70s and 80s. If the films were perfect as originally made, then why change them in any way? Isn't the purity of the original versions the most venerated quality above all? Isn't technological alteration evil? The original versions of the films were digitally mastered and released in 2006 so the purist could finally get rid of their VCRs (and laser disc players), but those unaltered versions were not good enough?

Something I do understand is nostalgia. For example, I love classic rock. I have a massive collection of digital music, an awesome iPod docking stereo and killer headphones. But I also have a nice Sony record player hooked up to a pretty good stereo system and a modest record collection. But I'm not an audiophile who argues the music sounds better on vinyl. I don't listen to records for sound quality. I listen to them for nostalgia. The hiss, crackle and pop (and even occasional minor skips) are part of the experience. If I want to listen to the pristine digital version, then I accept the changes to the sound originally intended by the artist.

This concept doesn't seem to apply to SW classic purists. Their love for Star Wars must not be nostalgia for a simpler, less technological time before George Lucas started changing things. I would think that purists would have been totally satisfied to get the unaltered classic trilogy on DVD in 2006. But no, they want technological improvements to their 70s-80s trilogy. The purist want to have their cake and eat it too.

The original negatives of the classic trilogy have deteriorated badly, but there are digital masters so I have no doubt Disneyfilm will develope a way to create a high-definition master and release the original films on blu-ray. Lucas' ego is no longer in the picture. There is simply too much money to be made off of all these purists that want the most technologically advanced presentation of these classic old films.

Honestly I doubt I'll even get the blu-rays because I have the 2006 DVDs of the original versions of the films, and I have never watched those copies of TESB or RotJ. I haven't seen the original version of those films since 1996 (VHS). Just for the hell of it we did watch the original Star Wars on DVD in 2006, and that has still been the only time I have seen the original version of that film since 1996. When I show ANH to my son next year, I'll probably stop the 2011 blu-ray version and whip out the 2006 DVD for the original Greedo scene, then resume the blu-ray. But other than Greedo, it's 2011 blu-rays all the way. No way I'll want to miss the prequel Jabba or the perfected space battle that replaced all the slow shots of the fighters (just seeming to float in space) with more exciting fast-paced shots. The improved Battle of Yavin was the most exciting thing for me about watching the Special Editions n the theater in 97.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
Just to point out something in Whill's defense: It's not just the internet. I've had discussions with co-workers and SW fans in person, and the nerd rage towards Lucas seems to be pretty common out there. And it gets frustrating. Imagine that you put hundreds or thousands of hours into this incredible campaign, and at the end your players shook their fists at you and shouted how you had destroyed their lives forever! That's (more or less) the reaction that so many fanboys seem to have at the creator of this thing they supposedly love.

I have encountered a little nerd rage in person, but by and large the Star Wars fans I know in my RL are not overly negative about any aspect of Star Wars. It was such a shocking rude awakening in 2005 when I encountered all this widespread and intense negativity in the Star Wars fan community.

DougRed4 wrote:
One thing that occurred to me during this discussion that could have easily alleviated this whole issue: if the Force ghost had retained (initially) the image of Sebastian Shaw, then morphed into the younger Anakin.

I'd probably be ok with that. As the OP image of the Vader ghost illustrates, the original Force Ghost was always intended to be a "what if". Anakin hadn't been a whole human being with hair and an un-melty face for many years. Since Anakin appears in What If form (if he had never had limbs cut off, become Vader and remained a Jedi), it is not a stretch at all for him to appear as his younger self, or to morph from old to young like you suggest (but if they are going to have a morph then they aught to go ahead and digitally de-age Shaw to match Anakin's canon age, which is another option even without a morph). Even in the orginal version, Anakin appearing as he did shows that Force Ghosts can appear any way they want to. If not then he would have been that messed up bald guy floating there with no arms and legs.

DougRed4 wrote:
Personally the change doesn't bother me at all, but the above would have made it clear to viewers who didn't follow who this was (and given that 'respect' back to Shaw, if necessary). That said, I really doubt there were ever many viewers who were seeing this movie all by itself. And if they were really that curious, they could certainly sit down and watch all six films. I don't at all find it to be "bad film-making".

Those of us who love the prequel films and appreciate (at least most of) the changes just get a bit tired of all of the venom and vitriol. Like the Twitter account Colbert quoted, constantly being bombarded with "Hilt on light saber stupid and impractical childhood ruined everything ruined!!!" does get really old. Smile

That is what a lot of them (but not all) act like. Man I'm going to miss the Colbert Report!
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Last edited by Whill on Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

I admit I do not understand the purist desire to have the original versions of the classic trilogy digitally restored, remastered in hi-def, etc. Digital films and High Definition did not exist in the 70s and 80s. If the films were perfect as originally made, then why change them in any way? Isn't the purity of the original versions the most venerated quality above all?

*snip*


This concept doesn't seem to apply to SW classic purists. Their love for Star Wars must not be nostalgia for a simpler, less technological time before George Lucas started changing things. I would think that purists would have been totally satisfied to get the unaltered classic trilogy on DVD in 2006. But no, they want technological improvements to their 70s-80s trilogy. The purist want to have their cake and eat it too.


Should I be possessed of sufficient available funds and a Blu Ray player, I would consider buying such a product. However, I do so understanding the irrationality of the desire. It's kind of like the same reason I don poofy pants, a cavalier's hat, a noble's robe and attend (and sometimes perform at) the Ren Faire. It's not the way Elizabethan England was. Its the way we wish it would have been!

Okay, yes, my shoes are 100 years off, and shouldn't be dyed black, and belong to a class lower than the robe. Maybe the gloves shouldn't have a cuff that long and also wouldn't have been dyed black. And definitely should be wearing a different hat for that robe... but I'm still going to eat a turkey leg, a pickle, and Mountain Dew and say hang the sense of it and shout the word HUZZAH about a hundred times.

Sometimes the things we enjoy don't make sense. Of course, I get very frustrated when people try to say that their irrational desire is something more than it is and attempt a post-hoc rationalization for a purely subjective, aesthetic preference. (And no, I don't mean anyone specific on the forums when I say that.)
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Zarm R'keeg
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(EDIT: I should clarify. I see three groups here. There are those- like yourselves- who enjoy everything Lucas has produced for Star Wars. There is a second group who are very vitriolic and hateful about the changes, who I am not trying to defend, and to whom you are apparently reacting. And then there is the third group to which I feel I belong (and generally encounter in my travels), referred to here as 'purists,' who detest many of the post-1997 changes/films made by Lucas but love the OT, and certain elements of the new... sharing that in common with the second group, and often seemingly lumped in with the second group, but who are not hateful or abusive about their dislikes. Doesn't preclude strong words over the changes, mind you, but these are the folks- the majority of those who hold a 'SE wasn't so great' viewpoint, I think/hope- who are saying 'I really think this was a bad change and here's why' rather than 'HULK SMASH! George Lucas ruined my childhood! Raaaar!' It is this third group that I am talking about below... and generally, on this site, I think that discussions like these, and previous, involve the first group venting frustration at the second group, which in the absence of a distinction between them and an absence of the original second-group-posts that inspired it (hence making the first group's venting appear to come out of a vacuum for anyone that hasn't seen the inspiration for it), are perceived by the third group as out-of-nowhere attacks leveled at them, since they share a viewpoint with those in the second group being spoken of... albeit do not share a temperament or intensity level with them.

Hence why I react- you say 'Bah! Group 2! How absurd, the things they've attacked me with elsewhere!', but the terminology to describe group 2 and 3 is so similar that it sounds to me like 'Bah! Group 3! I will belittle their opinions out of nowhere because they are different than mine!' I see now this is not the case, and wanted to clarify that my statements below are in reference to group 3 (who I refer to as 'purists' even if that's not who you may have meant when you used the term, and who some comments, including on the rationality of blu-rays of the 'unaltered' OT, might still apply), not group 2.


...Why do I get the feeling that only made things MORE confusing? Wink)


'Purists' want digitally-restored blu-rays of the unaltered OT for the same reason that people want digitally-restored blu-rays of any older films; so that they can see the same film in a higher quality that preserves more of the original image data of the film prints, before they got covered in dirt and hair and scratches. The way they would have been presented in their theatrical premiere, with fresh, clean, film-resolution high-quality prints.

The 'purity' of the OT is in its content (Han shooting only, Boba Fett's original voice, none of the silly stuff- admittedly, at the cost of the Battle of Yavin). People want to see the original content in a clearer presentation. I don't think that's irrational or contradictory; no one's saying 'I don't want to be able to see the details as well; that's purity!' they're saying 'I want to see the original details as well as they could be seen on a film screen (which high def approximates more closely); the best it can look, but only what was originally there- that's purity.'

It's kinda like if only one guy held the publishing rights to the US constitution, or the Bible, or the works of Shakespear, and released two versions- a shabby print on cheap paper of the works as written, and a high-quality, hardcover, well-bound volume where he's re-written the content to what he likes better. Purists would not be irrational in a desire for a high-quality, well-printed version of the originals on quality paper... because their 'purism' applies to the content (they only want what was originally there), not the medium on which it is printed.

Likewise, purists' love for Star Wars isn't for 'a less-technological time before the changes', it was just for 'before the changes.' They feel that the originals got everything right, and the changes altered scenes to dilute the tone and feel and introduce flawed material into what was a previously-superior narrative. They want the technological improvements to their 70s-80s trilogy, because technological improvements to the film were not what they objected to. Changes to the content of the films was. (And even then, not all changes, just some.) It was never about technological alteration, it's been about alteration in content.


Just like Shaw. And that's why I'll leave that here (stringently disagreeing, but my case has already been made and there's no point in restating it). I don't think we can process each-others' mindsets, and so we are at a stalemate. In a nutshell, 'purists' feel- and I speak generally, there is a spectrum- including trolls and pointless vitriol, as in all fandoms- that Star Wars got it right the first time, and the changes detrated from a perfect, self-consistent whole. Further, they feel that what is established first is the burden that any future entities bear to conform to, so saying 'but this or that doesn't match the prequels' is evidence that the prequels screwed up and failed to match what was established... thus any changes to get things to conform or tie closer to the prequels are automatically rejected as an invalid operation.

Hence, the changes that are objectionable (and I don't think I've ever heard anyone object to the updated Battle of Yavin, or Cloud City corridors, so it's not all changes- just enough of them that, lacking a hybrid film, the weight of the bad over the good leaves them wanting the originals, rather than hating every change) because they take what was already good, and either introduce something less-good (Greedo shooting, comedy that misses the mark in Mos Eisley, etc.) into what was better without it, or introduce something to match up with some that, from their perspective, came later, didn't do its research and created inconsistencies, and then wants to mess with the originals in order to repair the error.

Purists aren't cantankerous luddites that hate technology, or nostalgia-obsessed zombies that automatically reject everything new. (Seriously, offer someone a hybrid version where they can pick which version they get their scenes from, and I doubt you'll find anyone that says "I want to go back to the old Yavin because I hate that it's cooler!" They're just saying "I'd rather go back to the original without the new Yavin because that's the only way to get rid of Greedo shooting and Jawas falling off a ronto and get the Shistavanen wolfman back!") They're people who legitimately see the OT as classic, near-perfect cinema... and see the changes which they are vocal about (which is not all of them, just some of them) as moving those films further from perfection rather than adding to it, by introducing elements that don't mesh with the tone, or don't click with them, or are silly, or change the character arc of an individual, or... whatever else). They get annoyed at Lucas for not leaving well enough alone AND for treating the versions they see as perfect with such inequality. To them, it's like printing off those 'improved' shakespears; it was right the first time, and a lot of the stuff that got added just makes the stories less-good, or is jarring because it doesn't match the other content, or otherwise needlessly-distracts from what were already brilliant works.

It's like when your favorite restaraunt's french fries, or favorite soda, or chips, or whatever else, finally gets the recipe right and they are the best dang fries/soda/chips you ever tasted... but then later, they roll out a new 'tweak' to the recipe, and suddenly it's not as good. If you say you want the old fries back, you're not being inconsistent, insane, or unreasonable, and you're not rejecting McDonalds or hating on Pringles; you're just saying 'it was perfect for me, and now it's less perfect.' (And yeah, if you're bitterly lashing out online at McDonalds and screaming that anyone who likes new Pringles, you've definitely got a problem; that's taking it too far.)

With media, at least, the discontinued version is still around... but when the altered one gets new treatment that makes it look sharper, or upgrades to the new system of media, and the old one that you find to be near-perfection is an afterthought... well, you just might get annoyed, too. Smile These boards seem to largely attract the segment of fandom that likes everything that's been done so far- and so the idea of purists seems to be a foreign concept- one that's misunderstood as much here as those who truly enjoy the prequels and SEs are misunderstood elsewhere. But I can honestly say, for those who prefer the originals and are not raging or screaming about it, just a bit annoyed about it (which, in my experience, outnumbers both the ragers and the 'it's all good'ers, even if those two tend to dominate the media), it is simply because they really enjoy what was originally made, and dislike much of what's new not because it is new, but (as with the preceding Shaw discussion) because on its own merits, it doesn't work as well as what came before in their eyes- and thus, it is diluting an awesome work with segments of mediocrity. It's not blind nostalgia, it's honest appraisal of some of the added bits as lacking. (Not a universal opinion, clearly- which is why I find Hayden replacing Shaw as diminishing the film, while you see it as either neutral or an improvement.)

The point being (as I originally wanted to communicate) that this is not blind, unreasoned, or simply as a blanket anti-new position. It is simply reason by a different standard (and, as with nearly everything in entertainment, evaluated on a subjective basis) that is different from your own... but evaluated on its merits and accepted or rejected on them no less than this change is evaluated by you (the universal you Smile )... just with different conclusions reached.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarm R'keeg wrote:
(EDIT: I should clarify. I see three groups here. There are those- like yourselves- who enjoy everything Lucas has produced for Star Wars...

It's not clear who you are referring to by "yourselves" but I thought I would make clear that I personally don't like everything Lucas has produced. I'm not a blind faith Lucas fanboy that reveres him as a god. The Ewok TV movie are pretty horrible, and I have many issues with The Clone Wars theatrical release. But if you mean the the prequels and the 4 primary versions of the classic trilogy films, then yes I can say I enjoy all versions of them all. Even AotC. I don't see any of the classic film alterations as fundamentally changing the films as a whole, not even Greedo. ANH has too much other awesomeness to let that bring me down.

We agree that the ultimate classic trilogy blu-ray set would be one in which you could access a menu where there was a list of all versions of each scene and you chose up front which versions you want and then watch your personal edit of the films. Then I could check the original Greedo and maybe a couple other original things but watch the rest of the 2011 blu-ray versions. Or at least just give us the option over a few things like Greedo (and Shaw's ghost)! That would be sweet!

As far as the rest of your last post, very nice, well said. Thanks for not being a Hulk smash kind of fan! I have a feeling I wouldn't like green bunnies when they get angry!

cheshire wrote:
Whill wrote:

I admit I do not understand the purist desire to have the original versions of the classic trilogy digitally restored, remastered in hi-def, etc. Digital films and High Definition did not exist in the 70s and 80s. If the films were perfect as originally made, then why change them in any way? Isn't the purity of the original versions the most venerated quality above all?

*snip*

This concept doesn't seem to apply to SW classic purists. Their love for Star Wars must not be nostalgia for a simpler, less technological time before George Lucas started changing things. I would think that purists would have been totally satisfied to get the unaltered classic trilogy on DVD in 2006. But no, they want technological improvements to their 70s-80s trilogy. The purist want to have their cake and eat it too.

Should I be possessed of sufficient available funds and a Blu Ray player, I would consider buying such a product. However, I do so understanding the irrationality of the desire. It's kind of like the same reason I don poofy pants, a cavalier's hat, a noble's robe and attend (and sometimes perform at) the Ren Faire. It's not the way Elizabethan England was. Its the way we wish it would have been!

*snip*

Sometimes the things we enjoy don't make sense. Of course, I get very frustrated when people try to say that their irrational desire is something more than it is and attempt a post-hoc rationalization for a purely subjective, aesthetic preference. (And no, I don't mean anyone specific on the forums when I say that.)

I couldn't agree more about how annoying that is. You like what you like and don't like what you don't. There is no need to form an argument supporting your preferences and attempting to "destroy the opposition". So many Star Wars fans (and people in general) must be so insecure about themselves they go far beyond what they should just to get validation. And it is amplified by the anonymity of the internet. Many people behave very differently than they ever would in person.
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Zarm R'keeg
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

We agree that the ultimate classic trilogy blu-ray set would be one in which you could access a menu where there was a list of all versions of each scene and you chose up front which versions you want and then watch your personal edit of the films.


Here, here! Or even take Disney's merchandizing with the multi-part, custom build-a-saber shop that they have outside of Star Tours... a custom kiosk where you can pick your version of each scene, and burn a blu-ray of the finished custom movie. I suspect that will be the only way to fully satisfy every fan, honestly. Smile
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, they'd have to have a "Burn Every Copy That is Unlike Yours" option to make some people happy.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellenty written, Zarm, and I don't think any of us are that far away from each other. Bottom line is that we all like SW, some of us just like all six films and some only prefer three (hopefully we'll all like the future movies, and someday we'll all be able to say we like 90% of the Episodes!)

I do understand your illustration about the three camps/sides. And I doubt that most of the Rancor Pit falls into Group One; I think just Whill and I are more vocal on this topic.

My perspective on that is that there are not three groups. I believe that all SW fans fall somewhere on a line/spectrum. There are probably some people (though I have never met or heard of one) who love everything Lucas changed on one side, and then there are those "you ruined my childhood" ragers on the other. I think the vast majority of us (SW fans) fall somewhere in between those two spectrums. I believe Whill and I are more towards the left/first side (Group One) and you fall more towards the right side (Group Two).

The easiest way I can explain how I feel this is a spectrum rather than unique, different groups is with the following numbers (and realize these are just "pulled out of the air" and do not represent anything scientific; they're just used to illustrate this idea).

If we took all of the SW "fans" in the world (and by fans I mean people who are beyond the casual moviegoer who would go see the movies or watch them on TV, people who might read a book about SW or play the RPG or the like) and condensed them down to 100 (so look at it as percentages), here's how I think the fans would be clustered.

0 fans would be at the far left (Group One in your example), and probably 5 people would be clustered somewhere between the middle and the left (this is where I imagine me and Whill are; people like us still don't like some of the changes, might think of things like the Ewok movies, Christmas special, Clone Wars, and other stuff as pretty crappy, but overall we very much enjoy the six films. My guess is you (and others like you, Group Three in your example), are somewhere between the middle and Group Two. You're not rapid and insane about your hatred of the changes, but basically detest the prequels. Out of 100 Star Wars fans, my guess is that 70-80 of them or so would be somewhere around here. Then there's those that are at the far right extreme. I think they're a minority overall, but they're vocal and passionate, and my guess is that it's something like 10-20 over there.

Now that's just among the "Star Wars fans". If you took the populace of the world as a whole, I think that spectrum is far different. I think the sales figures for the prequel movies prove this. In this case, I think 80-90%, maybe even 95% are far closer to the left/Group One. They generally like the movies, and don't probably even realize that there are differences between the two sides. They'll say "I like Star Wars", and they might watch the movies when they come out (or are on TV) and might even pick up the Blu-rays.

Again, my numbers might be slightly off, but I think they're pretty close. I don't just base them on places like this (which is a tiny cross-section of the SW fan community), but base it on decades of involvement at all levels of Star Wars, from going to conventions to working with franchise-appointees (that work directly with Lucasfilm) to visiting general sci-fi sites on the net.

Those numbers (hopefully) show why I have a different perspective about the three groups. I just don't see them as different groups as much as different perspective on a scale, where we all have our likes and dislikes of the changes made.

[Hopefully that didn't come across as negative or putting down anyone's else's views on this; I don't think anyone is "right" or "wrong" in these. The only ones I find annoying are the vocal minority that just spew venom and complain about ruined childhoods]
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
That is what a lot of them (but not all) act like. Man I'm going to miss the Colbert Report!


Me too! I really only discovered him a year or two ago, but since then I DVR and watch every single episode.

I'm even saving the last two episodes, and will watch them later.
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