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garhkal
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 Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:50 am Post subject: |
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True. WEG was notorious for not giving breakdowns on numbers.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:51 am Post subject: |
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A couple of the Star Trek RPgs did stuff like that with casualties. SOme of it could be adapted to WEG D6 farily easily. My only reservation is that ships in D6 can't take too many hits. I doubt a ship would remain functional long enough in D6 for casualties to play a factor.
Now if we used the old optional rules for Capital Ships from the 1st Edition Rules Expansion, where capital ships took damage in pips, we'd have something. We could revise the 1E damage table (multipliers) to 2E standards (beat by), and then multiple the pips of damage taken by a factor based on the system hit to get a casualty percentage. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:33 am Post subject: |
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I wasn't aware 1E had rules for Capital Ship damage. Was that part of Star Warriors?
My thinking is that actually accounting for numbers of crew wounded, killed or missing is usually reserved for after the battle. In combat, the effect of an unspecified number of crew out of action would be better represented by increased difficulty levels for all actions taken by the ship, then partially gained back post-battle, representing the crew who were just stunned or trapped in damaged areas as opposed to those who are killed or badly wounded.
Just to throw a concept out there...Damage Result = Difficulty Increase (roll dice values once to represent random values)
Controls Ionized = +1
Lightly Damaged = +2
Heavily Damaged = +1D
Severely Damaged = +2D All penalties are cumulative over the course of a single battle.
After the battle, as part of repairs, divide the total penalty by half, then convert to a dice value, roll once, and subtract the result from the penalty total. This would represent crew who were temporarily out of action that are now able to return to duty.
How this would convert to crew casualties (as in crew who are killed or crippled as opposed to just being in sick bay for a few weeks), I have yet to settle on. Skeleton crew would be the threshold at which the ship can no longer be operated...
Just me rambling, but the core idea is there...
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I wasn't aware 1E had rules for Capital Ship damage. Was that part of Star Warriors? |
Yes, and it was used in a somewhat similar fashion in the 1E Rules Upgrade- not the 4 page booklet they included in every adventure for a year or so, but the softcover book that freshed out and revised a lot of stuff.
| Quote: |
My thinking is that actually accounting for numbers of crew wounded, killed or missing is usually reserved for after the battle. In combat, the effect of an unspecified number of crew out of action would be better represented by increased difficulty levels for all actions taken by the ship, then partially gained back post-battle, representing the crew who were just stunned or trapped in damaged areas as opposed to those who are killed or badly wounded. |
The thing is, the % casualties are great for enhancing DC. In Trek what happened was that if the crew casualties reached certain levels the difficulties went up. But good DC could reduce the casualties, representing just the sort of things you mentioned, as well as medical aid healing wounded. Some sections of the ship had high casualties modifiers, while other had low modifiers.
Final breakdowns were determined after the battle, based of the % of losses taken. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | ...it was used in a somewhat similar fashion in the 1E Rules Upgrade- not the 4 page booklet they included in every adventure for a year or so, but the softcover book that freshed out and revised a lot of stuff. |
I'll have to see if I can find a copy of that...
| Quote: | | The thing is, the % casualties are great for enhancing DC. |
That's why I used dice rolls to generate random values instead of flat difficulty modifiers. Of course, based on the vagaries of D6 probabilities, maybe it would be better to generate difficulty numbers using multipliers, like so...Roll 1D, then apply the following modifier based on damage level:
Controls Ionized = x 1/2 (round down)
Lightly Damaged = x 1
Heavily Damaged = x 1.5 (round down)
Severely Damaged = x 2 | Quote: | | But good DC could reduce the casualties, representing just the sort of things you mentioned, as well as medical aid healing wounded. |
I'd be okay with allowing the Damage Control modifiers I posited above to be used to partially reduce the casualty modifier, with the assumption that medical and rescue personnel are part of damage control operations on capital ships.
This could also be an opener for hospital and S&R craft to have an effect, to help reduce the casualty difficulty modifier post-battle by rescuing crew from severely damaged or destroyed ships and using those crew to fill crew positions aboard other ships. The Empire is described as being rather callous with regards to rescuing personnel, but the factions of Battlefleet Gothic / WH40K care even less about their crews than the Empire if anything, and they still make an effort to recover the crews of destroyed ships for the simple expediency of replacing crew losses.
| Quote: | | Some sections of the ship had high casualties modifiers, while other had low modifiers. |
This could be linked to the damage charts listed in the rule book, in that the primary casualty modifier would be applied to the section indicated as damaged, with other locations taking 50% of the modifier, representing secondary and peripheral damage.
| Quote: | | Final breakdowns were determined after the battle, based of the % of losses taken. |
That's what I'm picturing as well; I just don't feel the need to calculate actual crew casualty numbers during the battle. The increase in difficulty will be the thing that matters most in combat.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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This could also open up some potentially new skills or templates, like say an extinguisher skill, or damage control technician template.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:36 pm Post subject: Hull codes of fighters with astromechs |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I like the jury-rigging idea, but based on the description of the X-Wing in the Star Wars Sourcebook, it seems that the ship is specifically designed to perform repairs in mid-flight. When a ship is specifically designed for that function, that seems to be beyond the scope of jury-rigging. |
| atgxtg wrote: | | That stat could be equal to Hull Dice, with some ships varying buy 1D or so either way. THat way we wouldn't have to add a new stat on all the ship sheets. Just bump up the X-Wing and a few others. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'm picturing giving each ship a Damage Control stat (maybe in parenthesis under Hull) |
Here are some 1e SW Sourcebook ships:
Hull Code/Ship/Shields Code
4D ... / Z-95 / 1D - "legendary for holding together despite severe damage"
2D+2 / A-wing / 1D
3D ... / B-wing / 2D
4D ... / X-wing / 1D
4D+1 / Y-wing / 1D - whole not-short paragraph devoted to everything the astromech droid does.
2D ... / TIE/ln+ / 0
3D ... / TIE Interceptor / 0
4D+1 / TIE Bomber /
4D ... / YT-1300 / 0
| Quote: | | Like the Incom/Subpro Z-95 before it, the X-wing has gained a well-deserved reputation for absorbing damage. Part of the credit goes to the astromech Droid, which can reroute signal and control circuitry, extinguish plasma fires, and actually make repairs in flight. |
The players of my first 1e game group all had the two hardbacks and had read the Sb. The whole group discussed it and we unanimously agreed that the astromechs' in-flight abilities was already factored into Hull codes of X-wings and Y-wings. Without an astromech, we didn't feel that the X-wing without shields was as tough as a YT-1300. And although an X-wing might be a little tougher than an A-wing, we didn't feel that the difference between 4D and 2D+2 was accurate. And a B-wing is a tank that flies—They did give it 2D shields, yes, but it doesn't seem right that it would have a Hull a whole die less than an X-wing's Hull. They should at least have equal Hulls, and the extra shields is to protect it more because it is a slower and more damaging target. And we felt the TIE Interceptor should at least have an equal Hull to an X-wing's true Hull, because it still didn't have the shields or the droid.
So we decided that the X-wing and Y-wing were considered to have a higher Hull because they had droids to fix stuff in-flight that would go unfixed in the other fighters. That determination was needed because the PCs' Rebel base was attacked by pirates and some of the PCs opted into taking off in X-wings and Y-wings without waiting on the droids. When flying those fighters with no droids, we lowered the Hull codes by 1D.
It's not that this game never had fluff that wasn't taken into consideration in the stats, but there is a lot of evidence in this case that astromechs were taken into consideration in a very simple "+1D to Hull" way. The game designers intentionally increasing the X-wing and Y-wing Hull codes to account for the droids, thus eliminating the need for damage control rules and in-flight repair rolls and more crunch, would totally be within the MO of the 1e game. But 2e just carried it forward. A lot of you didn't come into this game until after the rise of 2e, and also the rise of the EU which largely stood on the shoulders of a giant named WEG. I can see that to a lot of you, it may just seem to be an axiom of Star Wars that Y-wings and X-wings are a lot tougher than A-wings, and thus see the need to add stats to X-wings and Y-wings without considering that maybe astromechs were factored into the ship stats but they just didn't come out and say it.
Even with adding damage control rules and making rolls for the droids in-flight, I wouldn't think X-wings and Y-wings being designed to be more conducive to damage control should add anything to their stats because it was already baked in.
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:39 am Post subject: Jury-Rigging: Improper Repairs (v Improper Modifications) |
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Jury Rigging versus Tinkering (jmanski)
Hasty repair - "Hold it together, baby" (Straxus)
Jury rigged repairs (Ning Leihrec)
I elected to start a new thread* instead of reply in jmanski's recent thread because the emphasis of that thread was modifications and the difference between less and more time taken. I have taken Dredwulf60's reply in that thread and quoted it below.
| Dredwulf60 wrote: | Jury Rigging is about making something that is broken work using whatever is available and any method that works. Meant to be temporary.
The key being to make it work almost as well as it did before it was broke.
Tinkering is modifying something to squeeze the most performance out of it or customize it out of its normal specifications using personal fabrication know-how.
The key being to make it work better than it did, even though there will be some trade-offs.
I am aware this contradicts the RAW Jury Rigging definition and effects, but that's the distinction *I* would house rule between Jury Rigging and Tinkering. |
I tend agree with Dredwulf's assessment. A key consideration is improper repairs v improper modification. Improper repairs are quick and dirty temporary partial repairs not meant to last long term and may end up causing more damage, while improper modifications are temporary improvements beyond the limits of its design, and perhaps even to have new feature or function beyond its design.
Star Wars definitely has the improper repairs. Amidala's ship running the blockade in TPM is a good example of this. They take a barrage and the shield generator was hit, knocking out most of the shields. For dramatic reasons it needs to be repaired outside the ship so they send up several magnetically-wheeled astromech droids. As the ship takes more damage, the droids are being picked off. Then the last shield goes, and the pilot (Ric Olié, Bravo Leader) says the shields are now gone. (And Captain Panaka expresses concern for their survival without shields.) Then Artoo definitely jury-rigs something because the pilot says that the power to shields is back and, "That little droid did it. He bypassed the main power drive."
But they also have hyperdrive damage that prevents long distance travelling, which in game terms could be that the main hyperdrive was damaged and the back-up hyperdrive has a shorter range so can't go from the mid-rim all the way to Coruscant. So they end up going to the much closer Tatooine where they have to get the part they need to make the main hyperdrive functional.
As I work on tweaking damage in the game, that goes hand-in-hand with repair rules, so to be complete that would need to include these quick temporary repairs like Artoo did with the queen's shields. They only had to last as long as it was needed to get through the blockade, because they hopefully wouldn't need them on Tatooine and they definitely wouldn't need them when they got to Coruscant. We don't have official rules for this. We have official 2e "jury-rigging" rules in Fantastic Technology, but that is all modifications side of things. Even though I agree with the connotations of "jury-rigging" that Dredwulf shared, technically the term has been used in English to describe both improper repairs and modifications. So what makes the most sense to me is to call both Jury-rigging, but then break it down into the two categories of jury-rigging, repairing (which we must create) and modifications (which we have RAW for). "Tinkering" does seem to be a good term to describe the modification side of things. So what do we call specifically the repair aspect of jury-rigging? As far as rules, below are two fan created suggestions I found here in the last 5 years (from the 2nd and 3rd threads linked above).
| Straxus wrote: | I... tried to make some house rules for "patching things up in a hurry" rules. The main point (for me), is to give a tech-savy character a chance to be useful in combat situations.
This is a first draft, so feel free to make suggestions/critique 
Patch-up repair
Use relevant Repair skill. Sometimes you need to fix things in a hurry, for example during combat. These rules reflect the tech doing whatever he can to keep the equipment running just a little bit longer, even if it's just with duct tape and chewing gum. This kind of thing is short term only.
Damage result_________Time used_____Difficulty
Ionized________________1 round_______Difficult*
Lightly damaged________1 round________Difficult
Heavily damaged______ 2 rounds______Very difficult
Severely damaged______4 rounds_______Heroic
Catastrophic/Destroyed___N/A___________N/A
*Fixing ionized controls means messing with the electrical system. Failure gives the tech 3D electrical damage
A successful roll lowers the damage 1 level. The repair lasts for [Technical attribute roll] rounds. The damage level goes then back up again.
Every successful attempt increases the difficulty for a proper repair with +10. Complications increases cost by 10% (cumulative)
-----------------------------------
I made the difficulties fairly high, I don't think this is something every character should have a fair chance of doing. I also made the "ionized" a bit dangerous, because I like that damage result, and it sorts it self out eventually anyway.
Not sure about that duration roll, initially I wrote "until end of combat". But if it can break "any time soon" that's more drama, right?
Tried to keep the number chruncing and dice rolls to a minium. It's a little bit of calculation after for the proper repairs, but it's easier to do that when not in a busy combat situation.
I was also pondering if the damage level should have a risk of going up an additional level when the patch stops working, but it became to complicated/too many dice rolls (at least for me) |
| Ning Leihrec wrote: | Jury-rigging for in-combat quick repairs:
- jury rigged repairs do not give bonuses, they only restore lost performance due to damage. Shields, maneuverability, etc.
- difficulty and time of jury rig repair depends upon the condition of the vessel:
shields blown: moderate / 2 rounds
lightly damaged: difficult / 3 rounds
heavily damaged: very difficult / 4 rounds
severely damaged: heroic / 5 rounds
- jury rigged repairs do not alter the condition of the vessel to improve the difficulty for further jury rigged repairs.
- no more than 1D of lost performance may be restored at a time.
- no more than 3D may be restored total.
- if a 1 is rolled on a restored die that restored die is automatically lost in addition to the results of the standard mishap roll.
- if a 1 is rolled on the mishap table not only does the vessel shut down but it also suffers damage equal to the most recent hit received... i.e. lightly dmg, heavily dmg, etc.
...
They are short lived by design given that whenever a restored die rolls a 1 that repair fails and the die is lost whether there's a mishap or not. Also, the characters would probably want to dismantle the rig in favor of proper repairs as soon as they're clear of danger since keeping it in place is likely to cause more damage to the ship.
As far as necessary parts, I would play it similar to standard jury rigging... The characters using available resources in unconventional ways. |
Thoughts?
*EDIT: This post was originally a new thread with no replies, and when I posted it I hadn't found yet this 2014 thread because I hadn't gone back that far. This thread is more than the brief discussions on the more recent short threads quoted from above. And "Damage Control" is a good thing to call temporary repairs because that fits with "Power Control" being what the unorthodox process of taking power from one system and moving it to another is called in RAW.
So does anyone have any current thoughts on improper jury-rigged repairs/damage control?
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Last edited by Whill on Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:43 am Post subject: |
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One key to me is proper repairs TAKE parts. Jury rigging a repair uses what you already have, such as when R2 did that bypass.... They won;t last long, and if rolling a skill related to that item (such as if that ship had to re-roll its shields later on), a 1 on the wild would show (to me), that the jury rigged repair failed dramatically.
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Whill
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:11 am Post subject: |
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Quick repairs/Combat Repairs.
How about this.
You can only repair 1 level of damage, or 1 system at the time.
Normal on the ground maintenace and repair time is 15 minutes.
on ground hurried repair: 1/2 time skill -2D
1/4 time skills -4D
For combat repairs. Allow only "small repairs" and then have them done withing 15 rounds, using the above table.
R2 used 15 rounds to fix the x-wing at his normal repair skill
R2 repaired the x wing in 7 rounds but must do this at a -2D to his skill
R2 Repairs the x wing in 4 rounds but at a -4D
Also I woulds assume that this is only to be applied to "minor damage", anything above that is simply not fixable in action.
(the exception here are capital ships, with a large crew you can use repair skill in combat to "keep" damage at level.
The crew of the ISD are on damage control duty, they have more than enough crew.
the ISD has suffered minor damage and the crew can in combat use the repair roll to keep the damage on minor, preventing damemge to increase to moderate and heavily, though at a -2D to the skill. A failure will result in the damage being raised.) |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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That seems decent..
And for those repairs, they can come undone, if during the hull roll to soak further damage, 1 comes up on the wild die.
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the suggestions. I feel that we don't need any repair rules between right away in the scope of combat and the proper repair rules for times taken in RAW. The more options you have, the more players will "do the math" and circumvent the normal repair rules. I think for normal repairs, you can use the RAW options of "preparing" (take double the normal time to get +1D) or rushing it (take half the time with half the skill roll). No need to reinvent the wheel there. For damage control I am thinking something like...
No special skills or specializations—you just use space transport repair or whatever technical skill is most applicable for the system being repair.
Time taken is one round for light damages, two for heavy, three for severe (damage controller can't do anything else during this time). These can't be "rushed" further with the RAW rules since they are already a quick repair as it is.
These patch repairs are per system, because individual systems can be damaged by multiple light damages, and heavy and severe still have specific system damages. These aren't full repairs—these are just to repair 1D of damage, or a congruent level of damage. These repair rolls are significantly penalized in some way.
If successful, function is restored or partially restored. The ship is still considered to have all the actual damage for both damage accumulation considerations and because the patch repaired systems still need properly repaired later. Anytime the patch-repaired system is used, a roll of 1 on the wild die means the GM rolls another 1D to see what happens (kind of like with jury-rigs in Fantastic technology). A roll of 1 on this roll means the patch repair explodes and damages the system '1D' worse than the original damage. A roll of 2-4 and the patch repair fails resulting in the original normal damage effecting the ship. A roll of 5 means it fails but you can bang on the system to get the patch repair working again. A roll of 6 means the patch repair sparks and sputters, but keeps on functioning.
If the original damage control attempt roll fails, you can't attempt to patch repair that system again until the system is damaged further. Once a successful patch repair fails, the same patch repair can't be reinstituted with a new attempt. If the same system is later damaged further, then a new patch repair can be attempted for that system. Maybe also have a rule that if the ship is severely damaged, all current patch repairs automatically fail, but the damage controller can still try to newly patch repair the damaged system of the severe damage, if applicable.
I want this to be a 'hope and pray' kind of repair because the drama should be that it can fail at any time (and might even make it worse). I think the chance of failure with every single use of the system will make sure that players don't try to depend on these repairs so they will always want to do the proper repairs later, which is usually done "offscreen" anyway. This is just a rough draft. I'm open to possible revision, and may tweak anyway as I'm writing repair rules. Thoughts?
EDIT: Damage Control rules
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