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The Star Wars Canon reset button has been pressed
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

This irks me. I've argued that Lucas feels that his films alone are art, which means they existed for art and money, while the EU was always only ever been a business venture for him. When RotS ended, his art showing the character arc of Anakin was complete but the money machine could keep on rolling. Lucas making changes to the canon of his art with TCW was just a way to cha-ching with an EU-product, or at least I had thought it was an EU product. Lucas is still a demigod among men for giving literally billions to charity when he sold Lucasfilm to Disney, bit it still irks me that he sold his soul to the Devil in 2008. Lucas used the Jedi Mind Trick on everyone, and this sell-out is now canon in the post-Lucas franchise.



I'd say the sell out happened "a long time ago..." when Lucas did the prequel trilogy. Up until the prequel Lucas had always said that it was Luke story arc. Then, with the prequel, it became the Anakin story arc.

Quote:

OK, I request assistance. I promise I will try to keep an open mind. If you are fan of TCW, please sell me on TCW being a part of film continuity.

1. How does it make sense that Anakin was made a full-fledged Jedi Knight very shortly after AotC instead of within the final year before RotS?


Because the Jedi council wanted to help break him of his strong sense of attachment and inability to let go. That was the reason why they sent him a Padwan. Now that might not have been the wisest course of action. In retrospect not much the Jedi did regarding Anakin seems very wise.


Quote:

2. And then immediately after promotion, why would the Jedi Council think it is a good idea to immediately give a very flawed Jedi his own apprentice?


See above. A Jedi can't have an apprentice unless he is a full fledged Jedi. So the idea was to use the apprentice as a way to teach Anakin how to let go.

Once again, I don't think it was such a great idea, especially considering Anakin's desire for status.
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strongarm85
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The plan may have worked fine were it not for the way Anakin lost his Padawan. That only damaged his faith in the Jedi order further.

Most of the Clone Wars story arcs finish up by season 5, although season 6 is very good and concludes a bunch of small plot holes from RotS. Also Season 6 brings back a lot of the mystical side of the force during the finally.

Its an enjoyable series but the first season is the slowest one.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
I'd say the sell out happened "a long time ago..." when Lucas did the prequel trilogy.

Funny how we SW fans always feel the sell-out happened in-between material we each liked and don't like. I remember Rerun stating it happened in 1998, right after good WEG material he liked and before TPM which he didn't like. atgxt, I'm sure there are many others here that feel like you do.

atgxtg wrote:
Up until the prequel Lucas had always said that it was Luke story arc. Then, with the prequel, it became the Anakin story arc.

Your point here seems to presume that the prequels were not even conceived of by Lucas during the production of the classic trilogy, and that is not true. From the point that ANH's success warranted sequels, ANH officially (with Fox's approval) became Episode IV, and then Episodes I-III always accounted for the possibility of being made as part of a six chapter Saga some day. Unless you actually thought the prequels were going to be The Young Luke Skywalker Chronicles (his childhood and teen adventures travelling around Tatooine, lol), then before the two sequels were even made, the prequel trilogy was not ever going to be Luke's story arc. And then there was TESB's dramatic revelation that Darth Vader WAS Anakin Skywalker. And then RotJ made a significant dramatic shift to Anakin Skywalker. The climax of Luke's story arc was resisting the Dark Side and throwing away his lightsaber. It was Anakin who saved Luke's life and destroyed the Emperor (and thus the Sith) while Luke was on the floor writhing in pain screaming for help. Since RotJ is the film that Luke first became a Jedi Knight in (and Yoda dies), Anakin is the titular Jedi who returned. Anakin Skywalker. We all agree that overall, the classic trilogy is Luke's story arc, but Anakin's story arc was already being shown in the original releases of the sequels. I also have original Starlog interviews and other sources from the 1980's in which Lucas talks about the prequels being about Anakin. The only sense that the Star Wars saga was about Luke's arc at the time was because the classic trilogy alone was Luke's arc and the prequels obviously hadn't been made yet. The prequels were never going to be about Luke. IMO, Lucas' statements during prequel production about the prequels having the overall effect of showing the Saga as a whole being Anakin's arc don't really take anything away from the classic trilogy being Luke's arc. The prequels do not undo anything about Luke Skywalker. The Saga is about Anakin while the Classic Trilogy is about Luke. They are both true, from a certain point of view. 8)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's worth noting that, with the time frame of the new films being set ~30 years after Jedi, a good portion of the EU should remain relatively unaffected. The New Jedi Order and Fate of the Jedi series are likely at risk, but it's highly unlikely that the opening crawl of the first film will be a detailed alternate history that wipes out intervening decades since ROTJ. They will want to jump straight into the action, not give a history lecture.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, the stuff in those novel series won't be affected (or shouldn't) but to those who have read and liked them, it would be like a slap in the face for us to not at least see some of what occurred IN them having an affect on the stuff later on.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
And you can always point out that the scrolling intro text to ESP states that the rebels on Hoth were under the command of LUKE SKYWALKER!


I always took "led by" to indicate that he was one of the leaders, not that he commanded all of them.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill,

You kinda asssumed some things about my post. Let me clarify.

Up until the prequle Trilogy, Lucas had said that the story was about Luke. Yes we knew there were Episodes I-III that dealt with Anakin, Obi-wan, the Clone Wars and such, but the saga was about Luke, and was supposed to extend beyond ROTJ.

There's a lot of stuff published where Lucas said that. But once he started the prequels he just retconned away Episodes VII-IX , and then claimed the whole thing was about Anakin, "the chosen one", and how he brought balance to to Force.

There is also stuff from Lucas about hoiw he didn't want there to be a TV series, as he felt it would dilute Star Wars the way Star Trek had been diluted with all the spinoffs. But he's allowed several such series.

Star Wars has been little more than a cash cow to him for years.
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zahn posted on his FB account his view of the new system and I really like his POV.
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The Brain
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
Whill,
There is also stuff from Lucas about hoiw he didn't want there to be a TV series, as he felt it would dilute Star Wars the way Star Trek had been diluted with all the spinoffs.


That's coming from the man who green lighted the "Star Wars Holiday Special" mind you.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
he didn't want there to be a TV series, as he felt it would dilute Star Wars the way Star Trek had been diluted with all the spinoffs. But he's allowed several such series.

Yup.

Droids (85-86)
Ewoks (85-86)
Clone Wars (03-05)
The Clone Wars (08-14)

atgxtg wrote:
Whill,

You kinda asssumed some things about my post. Let me clarify.

Up until the prequle Trilogy, Lucas had said that the story was about Luke. Yes we knew there were Episodes I-III that dealt with Anakin, Obi-wan, the Clone Wars and such, but the saga was about Luke, and was supposed to extend beyond ROTJ.

There's a lot of stuff published where Lucas said that. But once he started the prequels he just retconned away Episodes VII-IX , and then claimed the whole thing was about Anakin, "the chosen one", and how he brought balance to to Force.


This misperception has been dealt with at length on this board. In summary, the lofty dreams of a sequel trilogy (or two) was considered in the late 1970s but abandoned in 1980. The "Other" (Luke's long-lost sister) was not going Leia, but another character that was going to be introduced in the third trilogy. Luke would move to a more supporting character role and be a wise teacher of the next generation of heroes. The Emperor was not going to die in Episode VI, and the further sequels were going to be about the final conflict between the Empire and the Rebel Alliance. Early in the pre-production of RotJ, Lucas decided to abandon the sequel trilogy idea and tie up the story in Episode VI.

The prequels were always going to focus on Anakin and never going to be about Luke, and the sequels were always going to be about the next generation with Luke no longer being the main character. The prequels did not kill Luke's story arc, and the end of Anakin's saga arc was laid down in the early 80s long before the prequels. The Chosen One who brings balance to the Force and destroys the Sith in the prequels does not change anything that was already shown to happen in RotJ. Anakin still returned from the Dark Side and killed the Emperor.

I think we will all agree that Lucas constantly changes his mind. Even though they were accounted for in the late 70's, for a while in my childhood he was saying it was doubtful there ever would be prequels, but they happened. Then during the time of the prequels, Lucas not only said he wouldn't make anymore Star Wars stories, but he even had it in his will for there to not be any more films after he died! Then he sells Star Wars banking on the right to make future Star Wars films being a significant part of value of the deal. Then he gives billions to charity.

But FYI, Lucas has always said the original sequel trilogy idea would show Luke passing on what he learned to the next generation of heroes who would be the main characters, and since 1980 he has been consistent in stating he would not make any sequel trilogies.

However, you should be thrilled that Lucas is not making them. J.J. Abrams lobbied hard for Episode VII to be one final film focusing on the classic trinity as main characters while introducing the new characters. So the trinity are now the main characters instead of only supporting characters. Luke is getting one more story that he never would have under Lucas. Then in Episodes VIII and IX, the younger generation will become the main characters. Abrams wanted this next film to be a fitting send off for the classic trinity of heroes so the script was rewritten.
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The Brain
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Anakin still returned from the Dark Side and killed the Emperor.


Yes because killing the guy you always planned on usurping and killing anyways in order to save your own kid, totally atones for murdering a roomful of innocent trusting children. The Force has some weird accounting practices when it calculates karmic balance.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmanski wrote:
Zahn posted on his FB account his view of the new system and I really like his POV.


For those of us who stay away from FB, can you summarize what Zahn said?
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
jmanski wrote:
Zahn posted on his FB account his view of the new system and I really like his POV.


For those of us who stay away from FB, can you summarize what Zahn said?


No. I refuse to summarize anything for you.

I will, however, post it verbatim:

Quote:

Having now had a few days to process the news from LFL, a few thoughts:

First, since many of you are wondering, I have *not* yet been asked to write any new Star Wars books. But that doesn’t mean I won’t receive such an invitation in the future. If that happens, whether or not I accept will depend on what kind of story I’m asked to write, what input I’d have on the content, what era the story will be set in, etc. I would certainly *like* to return to the GFFA, but at the moment that’s not my decision to make.

Second, as far as I can tell from the announcement, LFL is *not* erasing the EU, but simply making it clear that nothing there is official canon. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, nor does it immediately send everything into alternate-universe status. If nothing from the Thrawn Trilogy, say, is used in future movies (and if there’s nothing in the movies that contradicts it), then we can reasonably continue to assume that those events *did* happen. It looks to me like the “Legends” banner is going to be used mainly to distinguish Story-Group-Approved canon books from those that aren’t officially canon but might still exist.

Third, even if something from the Thrawn Trilogy *does* show up in a movie in a different form, we authors are masters of spackle, back-fill, and hand-waving. For example, if Ghent appears in the movies but never mentions Thrawn, I can argue that he simply doesn’t want to talk about that era, or else has completely forgotten about it. (Which for Ghent isn’t really much of a stretch.)

Finally, there’s nothing inherently demeaning in the term “Legends.” Think back (a little farther…a little farther) to Disney’s 1950s “Davy Crockett” TV series, (a show I grew up with) which presented stories and legends about the King of the Wild Frontier. Historians have Crockett’s genuine history, but there’s nothing that says these TV adventures *didn’t* happen, right? So until and unless the legend puts Davy in Tennessee at the same time the real history puts him in Virginia, we can still believe those adventures happened. That’s how I expect it to be with the “real” Star Wars history versus the “legendary” adventures of the EU.

Bottom line: let’s all sit back and relax and see what new adventures are offered to us, both in new books and new movies. It’ll be Star Wars, and that’s what counts.

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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Brain wrote:
Whill wrote:
Anakin still returned from the Dark Side and killed the Emperor.


Yes because killing the guy you always planned on usurping and killing anyways in order to save your own kid, totally atones for murdering a roomful of innocent trusting children. The Force has some weird accounting practices when it calculates karmic balance.

I don't disagree with you, but I am not arguing for or against Anakin's absolution. But my quote was from part of a point about how the prequels did not undo the any classic trilogy focus on Luke. Anakin/Vader killing the Emperor was already the end of the saga long before the prequels and it now the end of the first 6 movies. Luke is still the central character of the classic trilogy as a whole despite this.

And unless Vader was lying to Luke in RotJ (which is possible), Vader seems to have given up on his plan to kill the Emperor. "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master." Just sayin'.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zahn wrote:
Having now had a few days to process the news from LFL, a few thoughts:

First, since many of you are wondering, I have *not* yet been asked to write any new Star Wars books. But that doesn’t mean I won’t receive such an invitation in the future. If that happens, whether or not I accept will depend on what kind of story I’m asked to write, what input I’d have on the content, what era the story will be set in, etc. I would certainly *like* to return to the GFFA, but at the moment that’s not my decision to make.

Second, as far as I can tell from the announcement, LFL is *not* erasing the EU, but simply making it clear that nothing there is official canon. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, nor does it immediately send everything into alternate-universe status. If nothing from the Thrawn Trilogy, say, is used in future movies (and if there’s nothing in the movies that contradicts it), then we can reasonably continue to assume that those events *did* happen. It looks to me like the “Legends” banner is going to be used mainly to distinguish Story-Group-Approved canon books from those that aren’t officially canon but might still exist.

Third, even if something from the Thrawn Trilogy *does* show up in a movie in a different form, we authors are masters of spackle, back-fill, and hand-waving. For example, if Ghent appears in the movies but never mentions Thrawn, I can argue that he simply doesn’t want to talk about that era, or else has completely forgotten about it. (Which for Ghent isn’t really much of a stretch.)

Finally, there’s nothing inherently demeaning in the term “Legends.” Think back (a little farther…a little farther) to Disney’s 1950s “Davy Crockett” TV series, (a show I grew up with) which presented stories and legends about the King of the Wild Frontier. Historians have Crockett’s genuine history, but there’s nothing that says these TV adventures *didn’t* happen, right? So until and unless the legend puts Davy in Tennessee at the same time the real history puts him in Virginia, we can still believe those adventures happened. That’s how I expect it to be with the “real” Star Wars history versus the “legendary” adventures of the EU.

Bottom line: let’s all sit back and relax and see what new adventures are offered to us, both in new books and new movies. It’ll be Star Wars, and that’s what counts.

I like that and I'm sure that is exactly what a lot of fans need to hear right now. And although he is correct that aspects of the EU are not invalidated in the new continuity until they actually are, this timely message won't always help those down the road when the new canon does later invalidate things. So eventually, when they are emotionally capable, I think it is best for big EU fans view it as an alternate universe that still exists. It is just as valid. It is just that there will not be new stories published that take place in that continuity, and that the current continuity may or may not contradict that universe.
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