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Revising Official Capital Ship Stats
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did something similar here.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
The Star Destroyers are practically invulnerable as they are.
No they're not. Combined fire from multiple snubfighters, starfighter–scale torpedo boats, or surprise weapons could easily take them down. The lack of a starfighter scale defenses was a glaring error I exploited as a player. I never run a capital combat ship without powerful anti-starfighter defenses.
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Dromdarr_Alark
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
The Star Destroyers are practically invulnerable as they are.
No they're not. Combined fire from multiple snubfighters, starfighter–scale torpedo boats, or surprise weapons could easily take them down. The lack of a starfighter scale defenses was a glaring error I exploited as a player. I never run a capital combat ship without powerful anti-starfighter defenses.


In my campaign, the players don't have access to an ideal complement of ships. They have a Nebulon-B, two corvettes, a bulk cruiser, 2 squadrons of Z-95's, 2 squadrons of R-41 Starchasers, and one squadron of Y-wings (it's not even theirs anyway - it belongs to the Rebel commander).

I also treat each firing arc on big capital ships as separate entities when it comes to damage, thus making them harder to destroy completely.

Of course, when I did a preliminary capital ship combat with this fleet against a VSD, only combined fire from the 12 Y-Wings was able to damage it. It managed to destroy the Nebulon-B and a Corvette in the process.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
Of course, when I did a preliminary capital ship combat with this fleet against a VSD, only combined fire from the 12 Y-Wings was able to damage it. It managed to destroy the Nebulon-B and a Corvette in the process.

And that is consistent with what happens when frigates and corvettes go up against battleships. Read up on the naval battles off of Guadalcanal during WWII for more details; the best way to take out big capital ships is with massed fighter attacks or other big ships (or submarines firing torpedoes, but the SWU doesn't have any of those).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the Strike Cruiser, I've come to the conclusion that my house rule doesn't quite encompass the full meaning of "entire systems or weapons batteries can be knocked out by a single, well-placed hit." Since I'm already adjusting stats, a better fix would be to reduce the Strike's Hull from 6D to 4D+2, midway between the Nebulon B and the Dreadnaught.
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Dromdarr_Alark
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
Of course, when I did a preliminary capital ship combat with this fleet against a VSD, only combined fire from the 12 Y-Wings was able to damage it. It managed to destroy the Nebulon-B and a Corvette in the process.

And that is consistent with what happens when frigates and corvettes go up against battleships. Read up on the naval battles off of Guadalcanal during WWII for more details; the best way to take out big capital ships is with massed fighter attacks or other big ships (or submarines firing torpedoes, but the SWU doesn't have any of those).


I believe you. That's unfortunate though. My players are trying to build up a fleet to take on a VSD, two Acclamators, and a Vindicator (flanked by a few Lancers, as well), and the biggest ships they can acquire are corvette and frigate size. The idea is that they will have a lot of lighter and faster vessels to outmaneuver the huge ships (the VSD is the first model, so it has Space 4) and use focused fire to harry them. They still only have one bomber squadron, but they just requisitioned 3 additional squadrons of snub fighters (equipped with 1 heavy laser cannon and concussion missiles).

So far they haven't even thought of going up against the (small) Imperial fleet in the sector.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
So far they haven't even thought of going up against the (small) Imperial fleet in the sector.

Well, the standard Alliance approach is to force the Empire to defend multiple locations at once, dispersing their forces. Use your fighters and corvettes in small groups to make hit and run raids on undefended or lightly defended targets, which forces the Empire to peel off a Lancer or two to protect them. The Imperial ships may be too much for your forces in a group, but it is possible to pick them off piecemeal.
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Dromdarr_Alark
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
So far they haven't even thought of going up against the (small) Imperial fleet in the sector.

Well, the standard Alliance approach is to force the Empire to defend multiple locations at once, dispersing their forces. Use your fighters and corvettes in small groups to make hit and run raids on undefended or lightly defended targets, which forces the Empire to peel off a Lancer or two to protect them. The Imperial ships may be too much for your forces in a group, but it is possible to pick them off piecemeal.


I'm hoping that they will devise a good tactical plan to do that.

But anyway, should we get back on topic?
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Mikael Hasselstein
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aegisflashfire wrote:
In real word dogfighting tactics (at least during the WWI/WWII era, which Star Wars dogfighting is patterned on) speed turns out to be a greater factor than maneuverability in determining who wins.

Interesting.

In a history video that I watched a month ago (can't recall the title, I'm afraid), it was a trade-off of tactics. Fast fighters would fly past and fly far away, whereas maneuverable craft would stick close and try to get in behind.

However, is that the fundamental trade-off in the SWU?

I've just begun to play FFG's X-Wing miniatures game. I'm not learned enough yet to give you an analysis, but it seems to me that space superiority fighters (such as TIEs and A-Wings, though this is not a classification from that game) are both faster and more maneuverable than snubfighters (e.g. X-Wings and Z-95s). The trade-off is not between speed and maneuverability; it's between speed+maneuverability and defensive/offensive capability. The same seems to be true of our D6 game.

Fallon Kell wrote:
Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
The Star Destroyers are practically invulnerable as they are.
No they're not. Combined fire from multiple snubfighters, starfighter–scale torpedo boats, or surprise weapons could easily take them down. The lack of a starfighter scale defenses was a glaring error I exploited as a player. I never run a capital combat ship without powerful anti-starfighter defenses.

I wouldn't call 4 squadrons of TIE fighters (+etc.) a "lack of starfighter defenses."

It seems to me that if the weaponry that can be carried by an rebel starfighters is a real danger to ISD2s - which I'll believe you on, though I've not run the probabilities myself - then waiting for those fighters to be in anti-starfighter defense weapons is waiting a little too long. The ISD's standard operating procedure should be to be surrounded at all times (aside from the time it takes to scramble and load in before and after the jump to lightspeed) by a swarm of TIE fighters. Those should be able to intercept any threats long before the attacking fighters come into range to pose a threat to the ISD.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
But anyway, should we get back on topic?
Part of my theory for giving improving SF-Scale laser cannon is based on the thinking that heavy cannon would not be able to shoot at smaller scale targets at Point blank range, so that fighters could get in "under the guns", so to speak.
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Dromdarr_Alark
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
But anyway, should we get back on topic?
Part of my theory for giving improving SF-Scale laser cannon is based on the thinking that heavy cannon would not be able to shoot at smaller scale targets at Point blank range, so that fighters could get in "under the guns", so to speak.


That's a cool idea. The old fatal flaw of big ships.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm building the concept around the Battle Zones mentioned on page 54 of the Rebel AllianceSourcebook, with the Primary Zone being a radius of 4-5 Units around a capital ship within which their guns can't target or use barrage fire against Starfighter scale craft. This would give starfighters a limited zone in which they can make strafing runs and precision attacks and only be threatened by token laser defenses and escorting starfighters.
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RexMundiAbu
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going back to your improvements to ships , I dont really like changing the stats of ships myself and the star destroyer one I'm not sure what to do with tbh . I was thinking that your version of the IPV-1 does fit its role better BUT I would just make it a newer version e.g. IPV-2 .

I seem to remember making a bunch of varients years ago , !PV-1 to 15 or something like that , each one a slight improvement on the last or different configuration , some even included hyperdrives . Well that is how I will use your improvements for the IPV-1 anyway , not sure about the other ships .
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Mikael Hasselstein
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright - my final grades have been turned in, and I'm on a 4-hour train ride, so I have some time to devote to thinking about this.

Like Rex, I'm also very hesitant to change official stats, unless they're absolutely absurd. Then again, I do respect Crmcneill's ideas and approach. For a while now we've been talking about fan-producing an Imperial Navy sourcebook, which goes in depth about naval formations, the order of battle, tactical and strategic doctrines, etc. - all based on the discussions we've been having on this board.

Thus far, this has been about collecting and collating - bringing disparate sources (mostly from the ImpSB) together in order to see if it all implies something coherent, and fixing those elements that are somehow at odds with the rest of the whole. It would thus be a go-to document for (mostly) everyone.

His suggestion here is a radically different approach, and I'm still thinking about how I feel about this. I'm probably going to have to have a pow-wow with him on the matter.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
Fallon Kell wrote:
Dromdarr_Alark wrote:
The Star Destroyers are practically invulnerable as they are.
No they're not. Combined fire from multiple snubfighters, starfighter–scale torpedo boats, or surprise weapons could easily take them down. The lack of a starfighter scale defenses was a glaring error I exploited as a player. I never run a capital combat ship without powerful anti-starfighter defenses.


In my campaign, the players don't have access to an ideal complement of ships. They have a Nebulon-B, two corvettes, a bulk cruiser, 2 squadrons of Z-95's, 2 squadrons of R-41 Starchasers, and one squadron of Y-wings (it's not even theirs anyway - it belongs to the Rebel commander).
What tactics are they using and do they have opportunity to refit the corvettes? The rebel force looks like enough to bring down a VSD with good tactics...
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