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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:20 am Post subject: Smart Missiles |
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I'm currently working on my own version of smart missile rules, but I'm looking for some opinions on the existing WEG ones. According to WEG, a smart Concussion Missile has a Fire Control of 4D, a Space of 15, and it homes for 10 rounds.
-Does the 4D Fire Control stack with the gunner's Starship Gunnery dice only on the first round, or continually throughout its flight?
-With a Space of 15, can the missile travel at All-Out, quadrupling its Space? After all, it isn't doing anything other than flying...
-If it homes for 10 rounds, how far out can it be fired from? How do you calculate the angles and distances if it misses then comes about for another attempt?
Thoughts and opinions?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Tupteq
Commander
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 285
Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:47 am Post subject: |
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I have completely changed rocket/torpedo rules. In my games all missiles and torpedoes are "smart". Gunner rolls gunnery+FC when missile is fired, then missile tries to reach the target, when it does, difficulty (or dodge roll) is compared with gunner's roll. If missile misses, then it will try to hit again in next round (assuming it still has a fuel).
Answering to your questions:
- There may be smarter missiles (like 4D FC), in such situation I'd replace launcher's FC by missile FC
- My HRs use missile Space rating identical to spaceships, missile's initial speed is it's Space, 2xSpace in second round 3xSpace in third and 4xSpace in fourth and later. I have a table of Space and fuel of every type of missile, rocket and torpedo.
- Maximum fire distance is sensor range (scan or search, depending on situation).
Some more notes, how missiles follow the target in my HRs:
- Missile attacks are resolved at the end of round (after all other actions).
- Missile moves in straight line to it's target.
- Missile always uses it's maximum speed (no partial moves).
- When missile "passes by" it's target, attack is resolved, if attack fails, missile finishes it's move according to rules above.
This means that when gunner fires missile it first "freezes" in place until end of round. Then it moves by it's Space toward the target. If it reaches the target, it doesn't stop on it (unless it hits) it has to make a full move (which may be 4xSpace). So, it's possible to outmaneuver a missile, due it's inertia (no partial moves, straight lines). |
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Lane Arroway
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 153
Location: Taris, Outer Rim
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Does the 4D Fire Control stack with the gunner's Starship Gunnery dice only on the first round, or continually throughout its flight? |
By the description in Pirates & Privateers the original shot uses the listed 1D fire control. After missing the "simple" droid brain takes over and uses the 4D fire control to attack.
| Quote: | | With a Space of 15, can the missile travel at All-Out, quadrupling its Space? After all, it isn't doing anything other than flying... |
I believe the space of 15 represents the missile's max and only speed. This allows for only fighters and other fast ships to out run it.
| Quote: | | If it homes for 10 rounds, how far out can it be fired from? How do you calculate the angles and distances if it misses then comes about for another attempt? |
It's space range is 1-2/8/15. Atmosphere range is 100-200/800/1.5 km. 15 would be the farthest it could be fired from in space. I assume this is also the farthest it can be to get a target lock. As for turning and maneurvering? I would just describe its movement and adjust its move to whatever I felt would keep the scene tense and exciting. However technically, I think for simplicity it moves like a ship would move.
I have a question, how hard would it be to shoot it down?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Tupteq wrote: | | I have completely changed rocket/torpedo rules. In my games all missiles and torpedoes are "smart". Gunner rolls gunnery+FC when missile is fired, then missile tries to reach the target, when it does, difficulty (or dodge roll) is compared with gunner's roll. If missile misses, then it will try to hit again in next round (assuming it still has a fuel). |
In the interests of preserving the distinction between the official rules and house rules section, it might be best to reserve discussion of house rules for a separate topic. Not that I'm not interested in hearing your ideas, but this one is more to clarify different interpretations of the WEG rules before heading off into house rule territory.
| Quote: | Answering to your questions:
- There may be smarter missiles (like 4D FC), in such situation I'd replace launcher's FC by missile FC |
I know the Hideouts and Strongholds book offers multiple types of smart missiles, with the Smart and Savant missiles joined by the more advanced Stalker Missile. Typically for a WEG product, the Fire Control dice for the basic Smart Missile differs between the two sources (4D for Pirates and Privateers and 2D for Hideouts and Strongholds)
| Quote: | | - My HRs use missile Space rating identical to spaceships, missile's initial speed is it's Space, 2xSpace in second round 3xSpace in third and 4xSpace in fourth and later. I have a table of Space and fuel of every type of missile, rocket and torpedo. |
That's not technically identical to spaceships, as the RAW allows you to accelerate one movement level up or down per round, so if the missile starts at Cruising (Space x1), jumps to Full the next round (Space x2), then it should be at Space x4 (All Out) the third round. By the same token, your freeze rule below allows the missile to decelerate much more quickly than allowed by the RAW. I would think it more realistic for the missile to stay at All-Out and go into a search pattern of some kind, searching for a new target.
That table sounds complicated but interesting. I'd like to see it.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Lane Arroway wrote: | | By the description in Pirates & Privateers the original shot uses the listed 1D fire control. After missing the "simple" droid brain takes over and uses the 4D fire control to attack. |
That's not my read. The Game Notes section for the Concussion Missile Launcher makes the distinction between "dumb" and "smart" missiles, with the 1D Fire Control specific to the Dumb.
| Quote: | | I believe the space of 15 represents the missile's max and only speed. This allows for only fighters and other fast ships to out run it. |
I don't like the idea of ships being able to outrun the missile. I picture even an A-Wing only being able to avoid being hit by using evasive maneuvering.
| Quote: | | I have a question, how hard would it be to shoot it down? |
The only RAW reference to shooting down ordnance is in Rules of Engagement for the Golan M102 Fire Arc. It states that an artillery shell stays in the air for 1 round at Short Range, 2 rounds for Medium and 3 for Long, is a Very Difficult target to hit, but easy to destroy when hit (1D Hull). For the purposes of missiles, with flight times of less than 1 round, I would say the range at which the missile is fired designates how many chances defensive weaponry has to shoot it down (None at Point Blank, 1 at Short, and so on).
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
I don't like the idea of ships being able to outrun the missile. I picture even an A-Wing only being able to avoid being hit by using evasive maneuvering.
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Why not. Some earth aircraft have a chance to outrun an incommig SAM if all they do is flank speed it (kick in after burners) especially those which are MACH 2+..
| Quote: | | The only RAW reference to shooting down ordnance is in Rules of Engagement for the Golan M102 Fire Arc. It states that an artillery shell stays in the air for 1 round at Short Range, 2 rounds for Medium and 3 for Long, is a Very Difficult target to hit, but easy to destroy when hit (1D Hull). For the purposes of missiles, with flight times of less than 1 round, I would say the range at which the missile is fired designates how many chances defensive weaponry has to shoot it down (None at Point Blank, 1 at Short, and so on). |
One chance at short, moving up in @ of tries at further range? But at what diff? Easy? Difficult? The to hit roll the enemy got in the first place?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Some earth aircraft have a chance to outrun an incommig SAM if all they do is flank speed it (kick in after burners) especially those which are MACH 2+.. |
If the geometry is right, but in a straight-line race, the advantages all go to the missile. Besides, if the missile is capped at Space 15, that means it can get edged out by a stock YT-1300 going All-Out at 16 SU's. I don't mind seeing an A-Wing running All-Out trying to outlast a smart missile (which it can, if the initial range is far enough off), but a ship should be at or near the A-Wing's speed range to even consider something like that.
| Quote: | | One chance at short, moving up in @ of tries at further range? But at what diff? Easy? Difficult? The to hit roll the enemy got in the first place? |
Very Difficult if the missile is coming at you, Heroic if targeting someone else.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Phalanks Balas
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 176
Location: Paris - France
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Smart Missiles |
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Hi Crmcneill, please find my point of view :
| crmcneill wrote: | -Does the 4D Fire Control stack with the gunner's Starship Gunnery dice only on the first round, or continually throughout its flight?
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Well I consider the gunner use his skill + fire control of the launcher. This is the "lock on" the target, then the missile is fired. if the result is less than the dodge roll of the target, there isn't any lock on thus the missile can't be fire as a smart missile (no target in memory).
When the missile is running, use the 4D alone as a skill to hit.
| crmcneill wrote: | -With a Space of 15, can the missile travel at All-Out, quadrupling its Space? After all, it isn't doing anything other than flying...
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| crmcneill wrote: | -If it homes for 10 rounds, how far out can it be fired from? How do you calculate the angles and distances if it misses then comes about for another attempt?
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15 should be the typical speed. Missile should be considered as vehicle scale. speed range is 15 to 60 space units.
10 round is far too long. how to manage 12 fighters firing 4 missiles in the same time against each other ?
10 rounds x 15 space units = 150 space units for movement before running out of fuel.
regards
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Phalanks
A day you will be facing the guns of the Black Pearl. You will know what means damned pirates ! |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:26 am Post subject: Re: Smart Missiles |
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| Phalanks Balas wrote: | Well I consider the gunner use his skill + fire control of the launcher. This is the "lock on" the target, then the missile is fired. if the result is less than the dodge roll of the target, there isn't any lock on thus the missile can't be fire as a smart missile (no target in memory).
When the missile is running, use the 4D alone as a skill to hit. |
That does seem to be the way it is written, but even a beginning character in the right starship can evade a smart missile with relative ease. It doesn't sound all that smart to me...
| Quote: | | 15 should be the typical speed. Missile should be considered as vehicle scale. speed range is 15 to 60 space units. |
I'm leaning this way as well, but if the missile moves like a vehicle, it will also be required to maneuver like a vehicle (take turns and make maneuvers and the like). I suppose, if a missile were treated like a vehicle, it could use the Ramming rules (2R&E Rulebook, page 110), but with a base Fire Control of 4D (and nothing else), it doesn't seem likely that it will hit.
| Quote: | | 10 round is far too long. how to manage 12 fighters firing 4 missiles in the same time against each other ? |
And yet 10 rounds is what the official rules give. WHich is part of why I'm working on House Rules.
| Quote: | 10 rounds x 15 space units = 150 space units for movement before running out of fuel.
regards |
However, a missile could conceivably run 10 rounds at All-Out (60 UPR) and cover 600 space units if it is treated as a vehicle. I can't imagine circumstances where a missile would be running at anything less than its flat-out maximum speed.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:15 am Post subject: Re: Smart Missiles |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Phalanks Balas wrote: | Well I consider the gunner use his skill + fire control of the launcher. This is the "lock on" the target, then the missile is fired. if the result is less than the dodge roll of the target, there isn't any lock on thus the missile can't be fire as a smart missile (no target in memory).
When the missile is running, use the 4D alone as a skill to hit. |
That does seem to be the way it is written, but even a beginning character in the right starship can evade a smart missile with relative ease. It doesn't sound all that smart to me...
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So perhaps they should get upped to at least 7d..
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Smart Missiles |
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| garhkal wrote: |
So perhaps they should get upped to at least 7d... |
Or maybe they should get a maneuverability score and a fire control score that they can add together when making an attack? That way you get to keep the die codes down while still getting a good die pool for attacks. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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At that point, we are no longer in Official Rule territory.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | At that point, we are no longer in Official Rule territory. |
Not sure if we really have been for some time.
PArt of the difficulty here is that we are dealing with some of the rules that while technically "official" are basically marginal or optional rules that were tucked away an an odd supplement here or there and not really used the way something like a heavy blaster or TIE/ln fighter got used.
I don't think there were any adventures where they actually used smart missiles. Nor do I think the stats in the RAW were playtested much. It's more like someone at WEG posted their houserules on smart missiles in a supplement and it rode because no one else had anything on the subject. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | I don't think there were any adventures where they actually used smart missiles. Nor do I think the stats in the RAW were playtested much. It's more like someone at WEG posted their houserules on smart missiles in a supplement and it rode because no one else had anything on the subject. |
I tend to agree. That being established, I'm willing to simply accept that, per WEG's official rules, smart missiles do actually exist, and use that as a basis to develop rules that actually work.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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I know some who felt that hideouts and strongholds/pirates and privateers was chock a block full of some WEG designers home made stuff..
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