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Star Wars Rebels
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pel wrote:


LOVE the Warthog. I think the Y-wing is closer to the A-37 or Su-25. Maybe even a B-25. That platform had many iterations, including recon and was a good medium bomber. Now if you removed the launchers and installed more guns like the B-25 J...Now that would be interesting.

I replaced your image with a smaller one under 750 pixels wide.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finishing up the 3rd season. The duel between Kenobi and Maul was perfect.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Finishing up the 3rd season. The duel between Kenobi and Maul was perfect.


Yeah, I thought you'd like it. 3 moves, done. I'm wondering why Maul thought that the move he used against Qui-Gon would work against Obi-Wan. After all, as Dave Filoni pointed out in the commentary, Obi-Wan was there and saw that move....

Maybe Maul subconsciously became a Death Seeker?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
Finishing up the 3rd season. The duel between Kenobi and Maul was perfect.


Yeah, I thought you'd like it. 3 moves, done. I'm wondering why Maul thought that the move he used against Qui-Gon would work against Obi-Wan. After all, as Dave Filoni pointed out in the commentary, Obi-Wan was there and saw that move....

Maybe Maul subconsciously became a Death Seeker?


I mean, you've got the death of Maul and a duel between Kenobi and Maul. You COULD write that to fill an episode. But it took less than 30 seconds.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Finishing up the 3rd season. The duel between Kenobi and Maul was perfect.

This does not compute. Some fans must enjoy Star Wars in ways I can't fathom. Lightsaber duels are action. I like action. I like lightsaber duels. Do you love the three brief sequential duels in AotC of Obi-Wan, then Anakin, then Yoda vs. Dooku because the shorter the lightsaber battles are, the better?

I've probably watched that Kenobi/Maul lightsaber duel in Rebels about 30 times total. (I just rewatched it three more times.) I've watched it in slow motion several times. Why? Because the duel is so incredibly unsatisfying. I want more. And this isn't just from the laundry list of criticism of the show. Some of the lightsaber battles are among the coolest aspects of the show. But not this one. (And not the helicopter-saber battles either.)

The banter, looking at each other, and Maul dying in his arms talking about the Chosen One like Qui-Gon did, nothing makes up for a literally 2 second duel (I just timed it.)

Sutehp wrote:
Yeah, I thought you'd like it. 3 moves, done. I'm wondering why Maul thought that the move he used against Qui-Gon would work against Obi-Wan. After all, as Dave Filoni pointed out in the commentary, Obi-Wan was there and saw that move....

Maybe Maul subconsciously became a Death Seeker?

Maybe dying and coming back to life so many times Maul forgot that Obi-Wan was watching when he used that move on Qui-Gon. Or maybe he was seeking death and wanted to be killed by the first person who ever killed him.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
Finishing up the 3rd season. The duel between Kenobi and Maul was perfect.

This does not compute. Some fans must enjoy Star Wars in ways I can't fathom. Lightsaber duels are action. I like action. I like lightsaber duels. Do you love the three brief sequential duels in AotC of Obi-Wan, then Anakin, then Yoda vs. Dooku because the shorter the lightsaber battles are, the better?


No. This duel was perfect because of how it works in the story.

Rebels is the story of Phoenix Squadron. Twins Suns is a story of Ezra Bridger. Kenobi v. Maul has happened before. In TPM. Several times, in Clone Wars. But a drawn out Obi-wan v. Maul fight wouldn't have appreciably advanced Ezra's or Phoenix Squadron's story.

What it did was put a definitive end to Darth Maul's influence on Ezra. It showed him for the broken man he had become. And, in some ways, it was the first fair fight between them... Maul had no advantage, he didn't really have surprise, or a pack of Mandalorians, or even being a Master facing a Padawan, as we saw in TPM. It was two old men, both of great skill, facing each other in combat... and it ended like a sword fight, with a single slash deciding the battle.

It felt like Kurosawa.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Whill wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
Finishing up the 3rd season. The duel between Kenobi and Maul was perfect.

This does not compute. Some fans must enjoy Star Wars in ways I can't fathom. Lightsaber duels are action. I like action. I like lightsaber duels. Do you love the three brief sequential duels in AotC of Obi-Wan, then Anakin, then Yoda vs. Dooku because the shorter the lightsaber battles are, the better?
No. This duel was perfect because of how it works in the story.

It felt like Kurosawa.
It also shows how far each of the characters have come.

Despite all that he has tried to build and his attempt to have a pupil (which failed), Maul was stuck in time, all he can think of is revenge and that fight that cost him so dearly. In addition, he was exhausted for the fight, having been on Tattooine and living pretty much through the Force in a very hostile environment.

Obi-Wan, OTOH, had grown massively in a variety of ways. He was a failed master to an apprentice as well, but he lived through the Clone Wars and had had to learn new ways of thinking, doing, living. That doesn't even take into consideration the extensive new Force techniques Yoda and he had learned from Qui-Gon Jinn, which opened up new possibilities. He also, in his own way, was stuck in time at that battle, but rather than dwelling on it, he decided to learn from it, and find a different stance he could have used. Finally, he was fresh and ready for the fight, having just ridden on his sand beast and had a fresh drink of water.

There is a lot shown in those simple moves and how quick it was done. And, yes, it felt like Kurosawa.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
This duel was perfect because of how it works in the story.

Rebels is the story of Phoenix Squadron. Twins Suns is a story of Ezra Bridger. Kenobi v. Maul has happened before. In TPM. Several times, in Clone Wars. But a drawn out Obi-wan v. Maul fight wouldn't have appreciably advanced Ezra's or Phoenix Squadron's story.

What it did was put a definitive end to Darth Maul's influence on Ezra. It showed him for the broken man he had become. And, in some ways, it was the first fair fight between them... Maul had no advantage, he didn't really have surprise, or a pack of Mandalorians, or even being a Master facing a Padawan, as we saw in TPM. It was two old men, both of great skill, facing each other in combat... and it ended like a sword fight, with a single slash deciding the battle.

It felt like Kurosawa.

Thanks for elucidating. Good points.

Of course Ezra is a big discontinuity with the films. I can't imagine the Kenobi of the films allowing Ezra to know which planet he was on or trust him to not reveal the secret (perhaps unwillingly revealing it). Ezra was a kid apprentice who was trained by a padawan and under the sway of the Dark Side. I don't feel that Obi-Wan would feel safe just because he was removing Maul's influence on Ezra. The films work best for me if the only ones who know Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi is on Tatooine are Yoda and Bail Organa. Leia maybe, but maybe Bail doesn't even tell Leia until he sends her to enlist Kenobi's aid against the planet killer in Rogue One.

This is really the biggest issue I have with the Rebels episode, more than Maul still being alive, and more than the 2 second duel. This is one of many examples of what's good for the story of Rebels too often comes at the cost of contradicting the films.

Ray wrote:
It also shows how far each of the characters have come.

Despite all that he has tried to build and his attempt to have a pupil (which failed), Maul was stuck in time, all he can think of is revenge and that fight that cost him so dearly. In addition, he was exhausted for the fight, having been on Tattooine and living pretty much through the Force in a very hostile environment.

Obi-Wan, OTOH, had grown massively in a variety of ways. He was a failed master to an apprentice as well, but he lived through the Clone Wars and had had to learn new ways of thinking, doing, living. That doesn't even take into consideration the extensive new Force techniques Yoda and he had learned from Qui-Gon Jinn, which opened up new possibilities. He also, in his own way, was stuck in time at that battle, but rather than dwelling on it, he decided to learn from it, and find a different stance he could have used. Finally, he was fresh and ready for the fight, having just ridden on his sand beast and had a fresh drink of water.

There is a lot shown in those simple moves and how quick it was done.

Of course. I certainly wasn't arguing that Obi-Wan shouldn't have had those advantages over Maul. I don't feel that Maul went down too easy for any in-story reasons. It is just my out-of-story personal need for action entertainment that makes me so disappointed in the battle. Disney really hyped up this appearance of old Ben in Rebels and it was a let down. For realism the story could have evened the playing field to put Obi-Wan at some kind of disadvantage, at least for the battle to last longer. Although ANH is my favorite SW film overall, it admittedly has the weakest lightsaber duel out of the 8 movies that have them. Sir Alec Guinness looks like he can barely even hold up the lightsaber prop. This Rebels duel is much more lame than ANH's duel.

Ray wrote:
And, yes, it felt like Kurosawa.

I don't disagree. I've seen several Kurosawa films, and I recommend everyone watch Seven Samurai and The Hidden Fortress, with subtitles and not dubbing. I can appreciate Kurosawa films for the cinematic artistry of Kurosawa, and also for its influence on George Lucas. But Star Wars is not Kurosawa and this Rebels Kenobi-Maul duel being only two seconds long and feeling Kurosawa does not at all help my appreciation of the duel. Sorry. Glad you guys enjoyed it though.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Ray wrote:
And, yes, it felt like Kurosawa.

I don't disagree. I've seen several Kurosawa films, and I recommend everyone watch Seven Samurai and The Hidden Fortress, with subtitles and not dubbing. I can appreciate Kurosawa films for the cinematic artistry of Kurosawa, and also for its influence on George Lucas. But Star Wars is not Kurosawa and this Rebels Kenobi-Maul duel being only two seconds long and feeling Kurosawa does not at all help my appreciation of the duel. Sorry. Glad you guys enjoyed it though.


Also watch The Magnificent Seven to see how other people adapted Kurosawa. Watch The Wizard of Oz, the movies Geo. Lucas made prior to 1977, as many pe-1977 WWII movies as you can (Tora! Tora! Tora! is as a good a place to start as any) and read all of Edgar Rice Burroughs that you have time for, stick with the Mars books if you're crunched for time. Then watch Robinson Crusoe on Mars. Somewhere in all that it is a good idea to watch Casablanca and The Maltese Falcon too. The African Queen couldn't hurt. These aren't the only influences (or even necessarily the most important ones) but they're the easiest ones to track down. Most people won't be able to sit through and/or find old serials and stuff.

Not all of influences are so direct as Kurosawa but they're the air Lucas was breathing. Like, Humphrey Bogart's characters are accessible, shining examples of the general kind of guy Han Solo was created from. Besides, the musical cues in those old movies were virtually copy/pasted into SW which is interesting.

There's a lot of homework in fully unpacking ANH alone.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed!

I have the first three books of Burroughs' Martian Series. I really appreciate them because they are not only an important influence on Dune and Star Wars, but a big inspiration for Superman and thus the entire superhero genre. And the John Carter movie was actually not that bad.

I watched Tora! Tora! Tora! on a little TV when I was a kid (Actually it was more like "-ora! Tora! Tor-" because the sides were cut off). I've seen The Wizard of Oz many times, including in the theater in the 90s. I think I've seen every version of the Magnificent Seven. Every so often I feel the urge to watch some classics, but no not too often. I have a lot of the classical and old movie musical score tracks that inspired George Lucas and John Williams (or that Williams almost straight lifted) for Star Wars music.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, seeing the Emperor when Thrawn presents Ezra to him, I wonder if Palpatine doesn't openly present a less haggard appearance to the Empire at large. Like, his viziers and Vader see his real appearance, but when he's making a public appearance, he looks like the Sheev Palpatine that was elected Chancellor, not the withered sith wizard we see in the Lothal Temple, and again in Return of the Jedi.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
So, seeing the Emperor when Thrawn presents Ezra to him, I wonder if Palpatine doesn't openly present a less haggard appearance to the Empire at large. Like, his viziers and Vader see his real appearance, but when he's making a public appearance, he looks like the Sheev Palpatine that was elected Chancellor, not the withered sith wizard we see in the Lothal Temple, and again in Return of the Jedi.

He presented a pretty hagard appearance to the entire Senate in RotS, and even called attention to his "scared and deformed" appearance.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've finished it. The whole thing.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Indeed!
And the John Carter movie was actually not that bad.


In my opinion it contained the best big screen fight choreography since The Last of the Mohicans. Which still hasn't really been topped but, this was the best thing since then.

Baum and Burroughs between them paved the way for a popular "fandom" and the concept of "in-universe" as we know them. At least among Americans anyways. The other giants of American fantastic fiction of that era (Lovecraft et al) had a huge impact but it was much more of a "slow burn" than the explosion created by Baum and Burroughs. That's leaving non-Americans out of the picture for the moment.

Unless good armor is involved, short quick fights are what you would expect between two skilled opponents, or one skilled and one unskilled opponent. Only when armor (or some other factor, such as trying to take a live prisoner) makes killing blows very difficult, or when both participants are unskilled, do you usually read about an historical hand-to-hand fight between armed people taking very long.

Course it's a fairy tale. So, everyone can have plot armor. But Last of the Mohicans made the fights pretty short and fast and it worked great.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
So, seeing the Emperor when Thrawn presents Ezra to him, I wonder if Palpatine doesn't openly present a less haggard appearance to the Empire at large. Like, his viziers and Vader see his real appearance, but when he's making a public appearance, he looks like the Sheev Palpatine that was elected Chancellor, not the withered sith wizard we see in the Lothal Temple, and again in Return of the Jedi.


I saw some EU thing or something or other, where his statues and posters and stuff are still the original not-scary looking emperor. Take that with a lot of salt though for numerous reasons.
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