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Knowledge Attribute Optional Rule
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:52 pm    Post subject: Knowledge Attribute Optional Rule Reply with quote

As an attempt to get the "roll"-players more interested in the Knowledge Stat, here is an optional rule I've come up with.
    -You may use your Knowledge skills to gain useful insight when using more practical skills, particularly Perception, but all the other attributes to varying degrees. GM approval is required on a roll-by-roll basis.

    -Here's how it works:
      1) Pick the appropriate Knowledge skill. For instance, if you are making a Gambling roll against a Twi'lek, you may make an Alien Species roll, or when attempting to Con an Imperial Army trooper, you may make a Cultures roll. You may also use your base attribute if you do not have an appropriate skill.

      2) Roll your chosen skill against the appropriate Difficulty (as set by the GM) and apply the result to the following tables.
        Skill Roll Success = Bonus
        0-2 = +1
        3-5 = +2
        6-8 = +1D
        9-11 = +1D+1
        12-14 = +1D+2
        15-17 = +2D
        18-20 = +2D+1
        21-23 = +2D+2
        24+ = +3D
        (+1 pip for every 3 points of success)

        Skill Roll Failure = Penalty
        1-3 = -1
        4-6 = -2
        7-9 = -1D
        10-12 = -1D+1
        13-15 = -1D+2
        16-18 = -2D
        19-21 = -2D+1
        22-24 = -2D+2
        25+ = -3D
        (-1 pip for every 3 points of failure)

      3) Apply the resulting bonus or penalty to your chosen practical skill. Rerolls are not permitted, and you must apply the bonus or penalty generated.

      4) MAPs and all other rules for skill use apply as normal, so if you are attempting to make a Knowledge roll to boost a practical roll in the same round, both rolls suffer a -1D MAP penalty. However, if you are given time to Prepare, you receive a +1D bonus to the Knowledge roll.

    -This is just a bare bones concept, and the use of Knowledge rolls to boost a single skill roll can quickly get out of hand, so it will be up to GMs to apply limits. One possible limit would be to apply the MAP penalties if characters attempt to apply multiple skill bonuses to a single skill roll (i.e. yes, your character can roll Alien Species, Business, Cultures and Languages to generate bonuses, but you suffer a -3D penalty on all four rolls).

I've mentioned this before in other topics, but this is the first time I've given it a topic of its own (I think...)

Thoughts?
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Savar
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the mechanic, just worried that another roll slow the game down more.

I personally would move both computer & droid programming to knowledge. As programming has more to do with info and less to do with percision physical skills.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
I like the mechanic, just worried that another roll slow the game down more.

Others have said so, and there are probably more efficient ways to do it. However, so far, no one has suggested a method that actually incorporates using the Knowledge skills. I want a method that actually requires the character to roll the dice on his Knowledge skill to generate the bonus. Yes, it will add an extra roll of the dice, but that is something I am prepared to accept as a way to get Knowledge more fully involved.

Quote:
I personally would move both computer & droid programming to knowledge. As programming has more to do with info and less to do with precision physical skills.

I could see that. I've already moved Intimidation over to Perception, so shuffling skills into Knowledge is an easy choice to make. In fact, you could probably combine them into a single skill.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One mechanic would be for every full D or 2 of the appropriate secondary skill add a pip. No extra roll needed, a bonus not hard to calculate. Would need some play testing to see if it works.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
One mechanic would be for every full D or 2 of the appropriate secondary skill add a pip. No extra roll needed, a bonus not hard to calculate. Would need some play testing to see if it works.

That method eliminates the possible penalty for failure, which I feel is an essential part of the rule.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it would do that.

It is a conflict of interests reduce rolling vs option to fail.

I just was giving a different mechanic.

The end result is subjective to the game master and the group of players.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
The end result is subjective to the game master and the group of players.

Indeed. I would likely present it as an optional rule that the characters could use if they chose to, but would also have the option to ignore and roll normally. The real advantage would be for characters playing Knowledge-heavy characters. Threepio, for instance, with a Knowledge of 5D+2, plus very high skill ratings in Alien Species, Cultures and Languages, could pile on some serious bonus dice to things like Con and Persuasion. Now if only he weren't so annoying...
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Savar
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not what you had in mind.

One game system i played used language as a cap to all social skill rolls. If i had said language at 3 but my bargain was 7 i could only roll 3.

That could be expanded to cultures being a cap on bureaucracy, alien species as a cap on intimidation.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of thoughts:


1) I think the bonus should probably cap out at the KNO skill. For instance if someone uses Alien Species 3D to get a bonus when gambling against a Twi'lek, they shouldn't get more than a +3D bonus.

2) You could keep a fixed bonus, such as +1 pip per D, along with a skill roll. That would streamline things a little and still keep the possibility of failure.

3) Frankly, I don't think the failure thing is needed. I don't really see a case where having extra knowledge on a subject would hurt your chances of success. Lacking the proper knowledge, would hurt, but, realistically, I just don't see how having 8D in a related skill is going to backfire on a character.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Knowledge Attribute Optional Rule Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
As an attempt to get the "roll"-players more interested in the Knowledge Stat, here is an optional rule I've come up with.[list]-You may use your Knowledge skills to gain useful insight when using more practical skills, particularly Perception, but all the other attributes to varying degrees. GM approval is required on a roll-by-roll basis.
..snip..

I've mentioned this before in other topics, but this is the first time I've given it a topic of its own (I think...)

Thoughts?


There is Merit to this proposal. With how Sparks handles the Body language Lorrdian skill, and Scholar. For BL, you gain 1d bonus to con, bargain, and other Per based skills based on how high your BL skill is.
For Scholar, if your field relates (like if say i had scholar: Numerology, and i am trying to crack encrypted comms), for each 3D of your scholar skill, you add 1d to the corresponding skill(s).

Atgxtg wrote:
A couple of thoughts:


1) I think the bonus should probably cap out at the KNO skill. For instance if someone uses Alien Species 3D to get a bonus when gambling against a Twi'lek, they shouldn't get more than a +3D bonus.


Or as Saver is suggesting, cap your Non knowledge roll, to what the corresponding linked Know skill is.

Atgxtg wrote:
2) You could keep a fixed bonus, such as +1 pip per D, along with a skill roll. That would streamline things a little and still keep the possibility of failure.


OR let the player pick. Go with a standardized bonus, say each full D over the attribute that Know skill is, you get +1 to the other skill's roll. OR they can make a roll on it to try and get a higher bonus, but if they botch it badly enough, they take a penalty.

Atgxtg wrote:
3) Frankly, I don't think the failure thing is needed. I don't really see a case where having extra knowledge on a subject would hurt your chances of success. Lacking the proper knowledge, would hurt, but, realistically, I just don't see how having 8D in a related skill is going to backfire on a character.


I think it more reflects you are "Remembering incorrect facts, or what you know was wrong in the first place".
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
1) I think the bonus should probably cap out at the KNO skill. For instance if someone uses Alien Species 3D to get a bonus when gambling against a Twi'lek, they shouldn't get more than a +3D bonus.

I disagree. That would unfairly cap someone who has an average Knowledge score, but has spent a great deal of time improving one or two skills. Someone with Knowledge 2D might have Survival 10D (they aren't book-smart, but they know everything there is to know about living in the wild), but your rule would cap off any bonuses at +2D, all because they lack a general knowledge of all subjects.

Quote:
2) You could keep a fixed bonus, such as +1 pip per D, along with a skill roll. That would streamline things a little and still keep the possibility of failure.

And how does that differ from what I already have? I already use a system that requires a skill roll to generate a bonus or penalty, and my bonus generation is much more restrictive than yours.

Quote:
3) Frankly, I don't think the failure thing is needed. I don't really see a case where having extra knowledge on a subject would hurt your chances of success. Lacking the proper knowledge, would hurt, but, realistically, I just don't see how having 8D in a related skill is going to backfire on a character.

I disagree. Human memory isn't perfect, and we remember things incorrectly. If we act on the basis that what we "know" is correct, when it is, in fact, not, we can make incorrect assumptions. If we try to apply this incorrect information to social situations or other practical applications, we increase the chance of doing it wrong. Increasing one's knowledge in that particular area (i.e. improving skill dice #'s) makes that less likely, but still not impossible.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Knowledge Attribute Optional Rule Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
OR let the player pick. Go with a standardized bonus, say each full D over the attribute that Know skill is, you get +1 to the other skill's roll. OR they can make a roll on it to try and get a higher bonus, but if they botch it badly enough, they take a penalty.

I'd prefer to have just one rule that covers it all, as opposed to letting the player pick and choose which way their character's thought process functions based on the rules limitations of the scenario.

Another reason I want to keep the additional skill roll for Knowledge is because any other generic bonus generator also removes the use of MAPs. If you are trying to calculate the odds in a game of Sabacc while furiously trying to remember what you know about Twi'lek body language to get a read on your opponent, your attention will be divided. However, if you have time to think, and aren't rushed, you'll have a greater chance of success.

Quote:
I think it more reflects you are "Remembering incorrect facts, or what you know was wrong in the first place".

Exactly.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
That could be expanded to cultures being a cap on bureaucracy, alien species as a cap on intimidation.

The problem here is that I want a rule that actually requires you to roll your Knowledge skills to generate the bonuses, not simply use them as a variable in a mathematical formula to generate a bonus or penalty. The idea is not just to generate the bonus, but to actually get the Knowledge skill involved by requiring a roll of the dice to generate the bonus/penalty.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm generally okay with it, and if it was done sparingly it wouldn't slow down the game that much.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Savar wrote:
That could be expanded to cultures being a cap on bureaucracy, alien species as a cap on intimidation.

The problem here is that I want a rule that actually requires you to roll your Knowledge skills to generate the bonuses, not simply use them as a variable in a mathematical formula to generate a bonus or penalty. The idea is not just to generate the bonus, but to actually get the Knowledge skill involved by requiring a roll of the dice to generate the bonus/penalty.


Smile that is why i said not what you had in mind. I was just giving Alternet thinking Smile
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