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Naaman
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 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Why do you interpret it that way? If that were the case, then you wouldn't need a hyperdrive because speed would increase exponentially every round.
I don't know how many SU/second the speed of light is, but even if a SU was 1 meter (which it isn't) it would take only 225 rounds (that is, less than 20 minutes) to reach lightspeed (that is, approximately 300,000 m/second) for the ship B in your example.
If we make 1 SU equal to 10m (average human walking speed), it takes just over a minute (12-13 rounds) to accelerate beyond light speed.
Now, maybe Whill can check my math on that one. It's possible I used the wrong operation or wrong variables to calculate it. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Why do you interpret it that way? |
Because if ships in the SWU are under constant thrust (which is strongly suggested by their observed characteristics on screen), and operating in a zero-g (or near enough as to be insignificant) vacuum, then constant, exponential acceleration pretty much has to be happening. The alternative is that somehow the vacuum of space in the SWU is somehow creating drag that requires constant application of thrust to counteract.
| Quote: | | If that were the case, then you wouldn't need a hyperdrive because speed would increase exponentially every round. |
Well, eventually, it would hit the point where E=Mc^2 imposes an upper acceleration limit, but space flight and combat in the SWU never lasts long enough or covers sufficient distance for it to become an issue, with most starship interaction occurring within a single planetary system, then using hyperdrives to bypass the relativity issues when crossing interstellar distances.
| Quote: | I don't know how many SU/second the speed of light is, but even if a SU was 1 meter (which it isn't) it would take only 225 rounds (that is, less than 20 minutes) to reach lightspeed (that is, approximately 300,000 m/second) for the ship B in your example.
If we make 1 SU equal to 10m (average human walking speed), it takes just over a minute (12-13 rounds) to accelerate beyond light speed.
Now, maybe Whill can check my math on that one. It's possible I used the wrong operation or wrong variables to calculate it. |
I may also be expressing it wrong. IIRC, if a ship has a given rate of acceleration, the increase will be arithmetic, not exponential. For example, if Ship A continued accelerating after the first round, its velocity would increase at a rate of 12 SUs per round, so 12 SUs in Round 1, 24 in Round 2, 36 in Round 3, etc, but compounded, so that by the end of Round 3, it would be 72 SUs from Point X.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Now, maybe Whill can check my math on that one. It's possible I used the wrong operation or wrong variables to calculate it. |
Even if I wasn't into my fourth day of a migraine, I have a lot going on in my life right now and little interest in checking anyone's math, other than my son's homework. Sorry.
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:31 am Post subject: |
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In the real world the formulas are
Final Velocity = Initial Velocity + acceleration x time
Distance = Initial Velocity + acceleration x time x time / 2
Those formulas aren’t going to be useful if we want SUs to (alternately or at the same time) be a velocity (ship speed), a distance (weapon range), and an acceleration (a rate of change in ship speed). |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Those formulas aren’t going to be useful if we want SUs to (alternately or at the same time) be a velocity (ship speed), a distance (weapon range), and an acceleration (a rate of change in ship speed). |
True, but we don't really need them to be. When you get down to it, SUs are really nothing more than an arbitrary measurement to facilitate space combat at a gaming table, and applying a thin coating of physics is just a sop for those who like a little more verisimilitude with their SWU.
This idea of SUs = Acceleration didn't happen in a vacuum; I distinctly recall reading a write-up on the idea. I can't seem to find now, but I vaguely recall it being up at the Star Wars Technical Commentaries (perhaps here, in their article on Sublight Propulsion, or here, in their Propulsion Subsection in the Standard Measurements article).
For the purposes of this rule in a space-opera setting, though, a detailed breakdown of the physics involved isn't really necessary, so long as the sci-fi handwave applies. And I haven't really decided exactly how I want to apply it anyway; limiting a ship's performance in order to protect the crew is one option, but seeing as how most of the other results on this list just make life hard for the crew inside the ship, I could also see a damaged acceleration compensator just increasing the Difficulty of any characters attempting to move around inside the ship.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | Now, maybe Whill can check my math on that one. It's possible I used the wrong operation or wrong variables to calculate it. |
Even if I wasn't into my fourth day of a migraine, I have a lot going on in my life right now and little interest in checking anyone's math, other than my son's homework. Sorry. |
No worries, Whill.  I hope you feel better.
I actually posted that just to cover my assets in case you felt inclined slap a dunce cap on me. 
Last edited by Naaman on Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:26 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | Why do you interpret it that way? |
Because if ships in the SWU are under constant thrust (which is strongly suggested by their observed characteristics on screen), and operating in a zero-g (or near enough as to be insignificant) vacuum, then constant, exponential acceleration pretty much has to be happening. The alternative is that somehow the vacuum of space in the SWU is somehow creating drag that requires constant application of thrust to counteract.
| Quote: | | If that were the case, then you wouldn't need a hyperdrive because speed would increase exponentially every round. |
Well, eventually, it would hit the point where E=Mc^2 imposes an upper acceleration limit, but space flight and combat in the SWU never lasts long enough or covers sufficient distance for it to become an issue, with most starship interaction occurring within a single planetary system, then using hyperdrives to bypass the relativity issues when crossing interstellar distances.
| Quote: | I don't know how many SU/second the speed of light is, but even if a SU was 1 meter (which it isn't) it would take only 225 rounds (that is, less than 20 minutes) to reach lightspeed (that is, approximately 300,000 m/second) for the ship B in your example.
If we make 1 SU equal to 10m (average human walking speed), it takes just over a minute (12-13 rounds) to accelerate beyond light speed.
Now, maybe Whill can check my math on that one. It's possible I used the wrong operation or wrong variables to calculate it. |
I may also be expressing it wrong. IIRC, if a ship has a given rate of acceleration, the increase will be arithmetic, not exponential. For example, if Ship A continued accelerating after the first round, its velocity would increase at a rate of 12 SUs per round, so 12 SUs in Round 1, 24 in Round 2, 36 in Round 3, etc, but compounded, so that by the end of Round 3, it would be 72 SUs from Point X. |
I see what you mean.
How about we do it like this:
A ships "space" movement represents the maximum thrust that it can achieve in one "burst." So that when a pilot wants to "go fast" he sets the thrust to maximum, fires it once (it bursts) and then defaults to "coasting" mode, where the engine is "on" but it's burning only enough fuel to stay on and ready for the next input by the pilot. In effect, this could be interpreted similarly to putting a transmission in N when coasting down a hill or something. Make sense?
Getting into a little more detail:
It may take several rounds of "burst" to achieve the ship's maximum velocity (change of speed categories from cautious to all-out, for example). Once the desired speed is achieved, the engines go into coasting mode.
Obiously, this would account for why combat would therefore place a much higher demand on the ship's fuel reserves since fuel would be used to accelerate, decelerate (fire reverse thrusters), change direction (fire directional thrusters), etc. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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I see (sort of) what you're getting at, but I think it's getting more complex than it really needs to. I'm mostly looking at this from a fluff perspective as to how to justify restricting a starship's performance if its acceleration compensator is either damaged or deliberately dialed down for stealth reasons. The actual in-game effect would be either limiting ship performance or increasing the Difficulty of characters moving around inside the ship, or both.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | True, but we don't really need them to be. |
I guess that depends on what you need. It seems easier to leave Space Units (SU) as a measure of distance so we can still have weapon ranges and say that the Star Wars universe is significantly different than ours.
Star Wars Space
Space is filled with ether which behaves similarly to an atmosphere (thus we see the kind of banking and turning you see in films.
The ether provides resistance, hence ships will slow down and eventually stop once they are no longer exert thrust.
Obviously the ether carries sound, which is why you hear TIE fighters whine and turbolasers blast when you are out in space.
And etheric pressure is what held the atmosphere inside that giant space slug so Han and Leia would walk around without a space suit. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Space is filled with ether which behaves similarly to an atmosphere (thus we see the kind of banking and turning you see in films. |
I can accept that the empirical evidence seen on screen would support this view, but I don't accept it for my own view of the SWU. IMO, there are other explanations for this (as well as sound in space and atmosphere inside a space slug).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I see (sort of) what you're getting at, but I think it's getting more complex than it really needs to. I'm mostly looking at this from a fluff perspective as to how to justify restricting a starship's performance if its acceleration compensator is either damaged or deliberately dialed down for stealth reasons. The actual in-game effect would be either limiting ship performance or increasing the Difficulty of characters moving around inside the ship, or both. |
Or how about forcing stamina checks with a difficulty that varies inversely with the rate of acceleration and which varies directly with the compensation setting/availability?
Failure results in stun damage, incapacitation (loss of consciousness, etc.). Just an idea that needs some development. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | Or how about forcing stamina checks with a difficulty that varies inversely with the rate of acceleration and which varies directly with the compensation setting/availability?
Failure results in stun damage, incapacitation (loss of consciousness, etc.). Just an idea that needs some development. |
That might work for fighters, but those sorts of g-forces on a light freighter would be throwing everyone around the hallways and rooms at 8 or 9 g's, and that's a lot more than a simple Stamina roll would cover. It fits with what happened to Jesmin Ackbar in Wraith Squadron, but doesn't really work as a catch-all result for larger ships...
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I would think that in a fight, only capital ships would have to worry about it. In fighter scale ships, I would think folks would want to buckle up since evasive maneuvers and persuits are "a thing" at the smaller scales. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | I would think that in a fight, only capital ships would have to worry about it. In fighter scale ships, I would think folks would want to buckle up since evasive maneuvers and persuits are "a thing" at the smaller scales. |
And yet there are multiple instances in the films of characters being up and moving about during chase and combat scenes (Artoo and Threepio during the Death Star escape, Han and Chewie performing repairs on the Falcon during the Hoth chase, etc). Buckling up might be ideal, but it certainly isn't an absolute, except in ships where you literally can't get up and walk around.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Good points.
I suppose a dex check could oppose a difficulty based on the degree of compromise. In some cases, maybe even a climbing check would be appropriate.
Whatever the "saving throw" turns out to be, I would check the RAW for rules on falling damage. If there aren't any for D6, then perhaps they can be adapted from d20. |
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