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Lightsabers
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:14 pm    Post subject: Lightsabers Reply with quote

Even though I GM I have not spent a lot of time looking at the mechanics of using a lightsaber. So I was curious if I am doing this right and how others do it in their games.

Just to swing a lightsaber at someone and hit requires a Difficult lightsaber combat skill roll. Meaning it will typically require an 18 or better to use. This requires a 5D in the skill to be effective with it (17.5 average). Though it says its a difficult weapon is it really a Difficult task?

Lightsaber Combat (LSB) may be activated in a single round, with a -1D MAP or done over two round without a MAP. The skill dice leftover from Sense may be added to your lightsaber combat skill roll and Control may be added to your damage. The power may be kept "up" though this is considered an action, so using the lightsaber with LSB activated is -1D MAP for a single swing.

So lets say the character has lightsaber combat 5D, Control 3D, and Sense 2D.

The player activates LSB in a single round and swings his lightsaber to attack an enemy. He rolls Control 2D (moderate) and Sense 1D (easy) and if he manages it activates his LSB. He now has lightsaber combat 6D. Since the power is "up" and he is performing second action, swining at the enemy, his skill is 5D. He now has to roll 18+ in order to hit. If he were to swing twice he would be at 4D and again would have to roll 18+.

Unlikely either way. This just doesn't seem right. Even with Control 3D, Sense 2D and the Force power LSB, IF he is even able to activate it, he would miss more than he would hit. This does not make sense to me at all.

How do others do it in their games? On the surface it would seem the best way is to lower the difficulty to Moderate and go from there. The idea of it being an "elegant and hard to control" weapon is handled as story fluff and not a part of the mechanics.

Thoughts?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In all honesty, we just ignore MAPs for actions that are all the same thing (swinging a lightsaber and having the power up, for example).

Also, the way I read the rules, it does no good to add sense unles you have more than 2D in Sense, since the MAPs cancel it out (or even overpower it) below that level. If you're applying the MAP to control as well, then it also must be greater than 2D to have any benefit.

Note that, it seems to me that the MAP for having the power up is only applied once. That is, you add sense and control to your lightsaber skill (for a total of, say, 9D to hit and 10D damage) subtract 2 each from your attacks and damage (one for sense, one for control being "up") for a new "base" total of 7D and 8D respectively. Now all attacks deal 8D damage, while multiple attacks suffer MAPs on a 7D skill total (so two attacks are rolled at 6D, three attacks at 5D, etc).

Though you'll find that most people do away with the RAW in favor of a house rule that fits their play style because the force power is either useless (at low levels) or way out of control ( at "moderate" levels.... there isn't much middle ground).


Last edited by Naaman on Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:41 am; edited 2 times in total
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Pel
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MAPs aside, I agree that the Difficult roll to use it properly should stand. It states that if the wielder flubs the roll by 10 or more (aka rolling 10 or less), they injure themselves (aka self-amputation). We always chalked that up to the blade having no mass and therefore new wielders tending to overcompensate.

For MAPs, I think you're correct, but I've rarely seen it played by the official rules. With Control, Sense, and a Lightsaber Combat strike you're really using 3 skills and should apply -2D to everything. At low levels this is an exercise in futility and ripe for amputating various appendages and the main reason why our resident Jedi only used a blaster for a long time.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. I tend to agree that (although it is my favorite thing about D6SW) WEG did an atrocious job at writing up the lightsaber combat force power.

It's way too prohibitive for early characters to use, and way too overpowering for mid-level characters to use. Forget about high level play altogether.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am one who LIKES that the LS is one of those rare weapons that its HARD to use properly.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't disagree on that, either.

But I think that, since only a Jedi should be using a lightsaber, and only a Jedi should know the lightsaber combat Force power, there just wasn't enough thought (or enough play testing?) put into the development of the rules.

Suppose, for example, your character is one of those younglings that Yoda is seen training in Ep. 2, only, when you start the campaign, he is 18 years old. Is really going to lop off his arm with a weapon he's been practicing with for the past 10-15 years? Just doesn't make much sense to me. Now, Luke in Obi-Wan's hut, that's another story, and is certainly the setting around which the rules are based.
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Is really going to lop off his arm with a weapon he's been practicing with for the past 10-15 years? Just doesn't make much sense to me.


Exactly point on this for dropping the difficulty one level. A blaster pistol is much more effective at any skill level in comparison. Practically all melee weapons are more effective. It just doesn't make sense mechanically for the game.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of that, there is a llevel of training required to properly use firearms, anf the same rules would apply to blasters. I used to think that we needed a rule for determining where missed blaster shots went and who/what they hit.

I really think that the whole self maiming thing was put in to mitigate everyone using a lightsaber... which is fine. The only non FS character we see using on is Grievous, but anything he chops off is just "parts" anyway.
I suppose you could count Pre Vizsla as another, but... I kida just ignore that whole part of SW...
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tetsuoh
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We house ruled that LSC adds only 1/3 of their force skill dice to their totals - this means the lightsaber isnt as effective overall - but still generally a good weapon and devastating in the hands of a master.

We leave the difficulty - the weapon is hard to use as you have no weight as a guiding factor.

This mean students tend to have a hard time with the weapon until they are well versed in it.

However we allow form training - which are our specializations of lightsaber but only allow their totals to be used on the manuevers used in those forms.

It complicates things but adds more of a martial element to the idea of the lightsaber.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Speaking of that, there is a llevel of training required to properly use firearms, anf the same rules would apply to blasters. I used to think that we needed a rule for determining where missed blaster shots went and who/what they hit.

I really think that the whole self maiming thing was put in to mitigate everyone using a lightsaber... which is fine. The only non FS character we see using on is Grievous, but anything he chops off is just "parts" anyway.
I suppose you could count Pre Vizsla as another, but... I kida just ignore that whole part of SW...


Perhaps you could use the 'grenade chart' to see which direction you miss into...
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL! I dont know if you meant that to be funny or not, but I got a kick out of it.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tetsuoh wrote:
We house ruled that LSC adds only 1/3 of their force skill dice to their totals - this means the lightsaber isnt as effective overall - but still generally a good weapon and devastating in the hands of a master.

We leave the difficulty - the weapon is hard to use as you have no weight as a guiding factor.

This mean students tend to have a hard time with the weapon until they are well versed in it.

However we allow form training - which are our specializations of lightsaber but only allow their totals to be used on the manuevers used in those forms.

It complicates things but adds more of a martial element to the idea of the lightsaber.


Adding fewer (but proportionate) amounts of dice is a clean, simple way to balance out the higher levels of play. But it would totally nuter the younger Jedi. Have you made the power easier to activate/use (do you still apply MAPs, for example)?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an option, Lightsaber could be an advanced skill, and the danger of maiming yourself is only for unskilled use just using the Melee skill.
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tetsuoh
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
tetsuoh wrote:
We house ruled that LSC adds only 1/3 of their force skill dice to their totals - this means the lightsaber isnt as effective overall - but still generally a good weapon and devastating in the hands of a master.

We leave the difficulty - the weapon is hard to use as you have no weight as a guiding factor.

This mean students tend to have a hard time with the weapon until they are well versed in it.

However we allow form training - which are our specializations of lightsaber but only allow their totals to be used on the manuevers used in those forms.

It complicates things but adds more of a martial element to the idea of the lightsaber.


Adding fewer (but proportionate) amounts of dice is a clean, simple way to balance out the higher levels of play. But it would totally nuter the younger Jedi. Have you made the power easier to activate/use (do you still apply MAPs, for example)?


No but that is the point - you shouldnt expect a young jedi to be able to activate LSC and their weapon and swing all in one round - they should have a good chance to fail at this - that is what learning is all about - failure. and since they would need to roll a 6 or lower to hurt themselves - something that generally wont happen on the avergae of 3-4D (its still not even the average of 2D actually) that isnt even the biggest problem - the problem is them getting their LSC going (if they benefit from it, which you can and do benefit from only one of the skills if you have it at 3d and not the other in our games.) - which is incentive to try to learn to become more in tune with the force.

But the fact that lightsabers are hard in our games is a given - as such most "young" jedi in our games either train delegantly to learn how to control their lightsabers - often choosing a specialization form early on in order to focus on one discipline and slowly raise the base skill - or they focus on their force skills and concern themselves with lightsaber combat every now and then.

this is the difference between a fighter jedi and a traditional diplomatic jedi in our games. the ones who focus on lightsaber often fall short on force skills early on and tend to fall to the darkside because of concern with combat. The one who focus on force skills tend to gain a better grasp of their connection to the force and tend to fall to the darrk side from their overwhelming use of the force.

Believe it or not - the force users in my campaigns who tend to succeed the best at being jedi are the ones who aren't concerned with how high their skills are - they often tend to lvl other skills more often than force skills and lightsaber skills sure they will train in force use but they do so more often in real world skills that would be of benefit to their role in the group, which can be next to anything - and they often try to gain force powers (if they are allowed to pick instead of their master - but masters are often insightful and can read the path a young jedi will be prone to.) that will accentuate that role.

If your problem is how well a "young" jedi can wield a lightsaber in D6 - then I think your focusing on combat too much.

The normal lightsaber combat power is broken - adds control/sense - well while they need a 16 - the to hit is replaced by the opponents dodge or by parry if the opponent attempts to do that - and will often be the result of a roll of 4d or less if they aren't attacking a major bad guy - 4d average is 12. The average lightsaber skill by template of a young jedi is none - young jedi don't have it - whats more they dont even have a lightsaber - because they arent ready for one.

The minor jedi template gets one but they only have a control of 1D - they cant even have lsc - so if your wanting to be good with that lightsaber I suggest the max 2D in your lightsaber skill if your not wanting to hurt yourself with it if your playing that template. And if you read the description - you know why - they lost their master. The lightsaber shouldnt be in their hands yet.

Humans base is 2D for a Stat - if you have 1D in each your probably not gonna activate LSC anyway but if you put 2D in the lightsaber skill like you can - thats 5D - the average your looking for - which gives you a 50/50 shot at succeeding. Even better if you take more Attribute dice and give yourself another in each of control and sense.

In our games a force student isnt ready for their lightsaber until they have 3 in control and sense - and arent ready to be a knight until they have 4 in both and lightsaber and at least 1 in alter.

And lsc doesn't - and in a padawans case - shouldn't - need to be activated the same round they need to fight.

If you don't give your group time to pull their weapons and prepare to fight by giving them a couple rounds - my questions is - why is your group constantly being ambushed?

EDIT: also not to be a prude on this but the concentration topic reminded me - we often see and encourage concentration use in preparation of combat - this is generally used to activate LSC by padawans in our game.

"Breath - distance yourself from the sounds of the battle - concentrate on the force flowing through you......... Prepare yourself - here they come!"
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
LOL! I dont know if you meant that to be funny or not, but I got a kick out of it.


I did it once, way back when. Asked the players if they would be willing to 'run with it', and they were initially giddy about it.

The way i ran it is if your shot misses the target, but is still more than the 'base range' diff, it was 'just a miss.
How ever if it was below the base range as well, then it 'randomly scattered'. Use the grenade chart, with 1d6 m of 'deviation' for short range shots, 2d for medium and 3d for long. If any target (even friends) are in that 'spot' it deviates to, Roll to hit again at -1d. If THAT i a miss, then do it a third time.
If the 3rd is also a miss, then you are done and the blast just 'disapates'..

The ONLY thing they disliked was it made combat a little longer, and the chance of friendly fire higher.
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