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Capital Ship Small Craft Conversion
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JironGhrad wrote:
Not to be argumentative, but the Darkstryder core book states that they use engine deflectors, like you'd see on catapults, in at least some configurations...

There's nothing like that in any of the films. I'd be more likely to ignore it. Either that or say its only necessary on ships with small, cramped flight decks (ala the Far Star, which had ships crammed in every nook and crany).

Quote:
I asked my cousin, who used to be the commander of the Thunderbirds and who commanded the Air Force fighter wing in Korea about it. 12/72 were the numbers he gave me for fighters. You're correct that they don't count training aircraft and whatnot.

Interesting. My source is the Tom Clancy book Fighter Wing, in which he details the unit composition of the 366th Fighter Wing, where it states that fighter squadrons can have anywhere from 18-24 aircraft assigned. The Wikipedia entry on fighter squadrons also specifies that 12 planes to a squadron is usually found in units with larger craft, such as bombers or tankers. It also, however, specifies that the US Navy and Marine Corps tend to have 12 planes to a squadron regardless of size, in contrast to the US Air Force. IMO, this is more appropriate to the Navy's operational concerns, as they don't have a lot in the way of large aircraft, apart from maritime patrol planes flying from land bases.


Quote:
I think, functionally, it's easier to use open space (of hangars) for troop transport vs the opposite. I've seen Air Force hangars converted for deployment and they often just install rows of bunks with makeshift walls for showers, toilets and even mess tables.

I'm thinking more in modular terms, where large open spaces can be filled with standard size container units (SWU containers, not real world ones) whose interiors can be customized to fit whatever the current operation's needs are. Need a big open space for cargo or fighter storage? Move all the containers out.

Quote:
You've gotten me thinking about something however. What types of dropships/shuttles do they use for things like AT-ATs? Are there stats for those someplace?

There is a space barge listed in the Death Start Technical Companion, but there are almost no details. The most detailed discussion the Rancor Pit has had on the matter can be found here.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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JironGhrad
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Joined: 20 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Interesting. My source is the Tom Clancy book Fighter Wing, in which he details the unit composition of the 366th Fighter Wing, where it states that fighter squadrons can have anywhere from 18-24 aircraft assigned. The Wikipedia entry on fighter squadrons also specifies that 12 planes to a squadron is usually found in units with larger craft, such as bombers or tankers. It also, however, specifies that the US Navy and Marine Corps tend to have 12 planes to a squadron regardless of size, in contrast to the US Air Force. IMO, this is more appropriate to the Navy's operational concerns, as they don't have a lot in the way of large aircraft, apart from maritime patrol planes flying from land bases.


Interesting as well since a quick search on active naval air wings suggests that carriers carry a lot of 4-plane squadrons for the indirect combat (things like ECW, Anti-sub, SAR, etc.) Regarding Clancy, he's generally reliable but perhaps he was counting the non-combat craft we weren't. In addition to my cousin, I spent more than 20 years around Air Force wings (his time was more recent) and I remember a lot of 6-8 plane units for heavies. When I was with the 2 CES at Barksdale, they had around 40 B-52s. 5 Squadrons of 8 for the wing. I was at Charleston AFB for the C-141 to C-17 transition back in the late 90s too and I believe they were squadrons of 6 at that time.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JironGhrad wrote:
Interesting as well since a quick search on active naval air wings suggests that carriers carry a lot of 4-plane squadrons for the indirect combat (things like ECW, Anti-sub, SAR, etc.)

What's happening there is that those smaller units are not full squadrons, but detachments from full squadrons that never deploy as a full unit. A carrier only needs around 4 E-2 Hawkeye's for AEW duty, so the Hawkeye squadron at the NAS chops a flight of four with their crew and support staff for a tour of duty with a carrier and wing. When the carrier returns to port, the aircraft of the wing fly off to their home bases and the detachments go back to their squadron until next time.

Quote:
Regarding Clancy, he's generally reliable but perhaps he was counting the non-combat craft we weren't. In addition to my cousin, I spent more than 20 years around Air Force wings (his time was more recent) and I remember a lot of 6-8 plane units for heavies. When I was with the 2 CES at Barksdale, they had around 40 B-52s. 5 Squadrons of 8 for the wing. I was at Charleston AFB for the C-141 to C-17 transition back in the late 90s too and I believe they were squadrons of 6 at that time.

Well, I don't have the book with me at the moment, but he was pretty clear across the board for all three of the main squadron types assigned to the 366th (Eagles, Falcons and Strike Eagles) that they had more than 12 aircraft each.

However, my line of thinking is for units composed of larger craft to have fewer of them. This parallels the Imperial approach to capital ships, where the basic unit of the Imperial Navy (the Line) can be composed of as many as 20 small ships or as few as one (Star Destroyers are considered the equivalent of a line by themselves).
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, now that I'm home, I re-read the portions of Clancy's Fighter Wing regarding squadron size, and it seems that that is due to the specific configuration of the wing at that time (it has since been reconfigured from a composite wing to a two-squadron wing of Strike Eagles). Basically, because the 366th's mission at the time required it to operate unreinforced, 12 planes to a squadron was not considered to have enough "depth" to maintain expected operational tempos, so each squadron was bulked up to 18 to compensate.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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JironGhrad
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Okay, now that I'm home, I re-read the portions of Clancy's Fighter Wing regarding squadron size, and it seems that that is due to the specific configuration of the wing at that time (it has since been reconfigured from a composite wing to a two-squadron wing of Strike Eagles). Basically, because the 366th's mission at the time required it to operate unreinforced, 12 planes to a squadron was not considered to have enough "depth" to maintain expected operational tempos, so each squadron was bulked up to 18 to compensate.


That makes perfect sense. Flexibility is the key to air power. Of course, indecision is the key to flexibility.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JironGhrad wrote:
Flexibility is the key to air power. Of course, indecision is the key to flexibility.

In the Imperial Sourcebook's Sector Group Organization chapter, the formation of Army and Navy units are based on a 4=1 basis (i.e. 4 sub-units combined to form a unit), to which additional units can be added as needed. No similar organizational chart was included for starfighter units, though.

Honestly, since the Army and Navy use the 4=1 formula, I'm surprised Imperial fighter squadrons don't have 16 ships (organized into 4 flights of 4 ships each).

It'd be interesting to see an organizational chart for starfighters in a similar vein to the Army & Navy's organizational charts, so as to see what sub-units would constitute a standard wing, and what attachments would be included to constitute a reinforced wing.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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JironGhrad
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll have to look and see if I can find the reference, but I swear that I saw something about 12 fighters being the squadron for the Imperial Navy recently.
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CRMcNeill
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JironGhrad wrote:
I'll have to look and see if I can find the reference, but I swear that I saw something about 12 fighters being the squadron for the Imperial Navy recently.

I'm aware of that, and it is in at least three sources that I can think of. My point was that, for instance, in the US military, unit structure is based on (generally speaking) a 3=1 structure, as in 3 squads = 1 platoon, 3 platoons = 1 company, and so on and so forth. The Air Force (so it would seem) also uses the 3=1 formula for flights into squadrons (and some wings). As such, there is some precedent for using the 3=1 formula for other units.

The Empire on the other hand (according to the Imperial Sourcebook) seems pretty firmly wedded to the 4=1 formula at all organizational levels in both the Army and the Navy, in that all units save for the most basic (squads, lines, etc.) are composed of four sub-units. As much as the Empire is in love with uniformity, I'm surprised this doesn't carry over into starfighter units, especially since the Empire's starfighters are subordinated to the Army and Navy, and are not an independent force in their own right (like the USAF).

As such, rather than using a 4=1 / 3=1 / 6=1 structure for flights, squadrons and wings, I could see Imperial starfighter groups being organized on a straight 4=1 structure at all levels, so that 4 fighters = 1 flight, 4 flights = 1 squadron (16 fighters) and 4 squadrons = 1 wing (64 fighters). In addition, as with the modular organizational structure of the Army and Navy (as per the ImpSB), additional units could be tacked on as partial units, as needed for specific missions requirements.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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JironGhrad
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's funny is that the short answer is probably something like the discussion we've been having resulted in all this information. Someone probably worked through the idea of US Forces= base 3. Then the idea is that the Empire goes bigger so it turned into double for fighter wings (doubling 3 to 1). While some other developer who probably played Warhammer 40k in its infancy said "hey they use a base of 4 infantry squads".
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Giving this a bump based on a relevant conversation I had over on the Fractalsponge page.
    The closest thing to official numbers is the Army Ground Support Wing, with 40 TIEs (24 Fighter, 12 Bomber, 4 Fire Control), 40 pilots, 25 sensor techs, 25 flight controllers and 60 ground crew personnel.

    If you break down those numbers, for every TIE, you have 1 pilot, 1.5 ground crew, 0.625 flight controllers and 0.625 sensor techs. Assuming most mundane and clerical tasks are handled by droids, and that the personnel ratios per craft remain constant, a wing of 72 TIEs would have 72 pilots, 108 ground crew, 45 flight controllers and 45 sensor techs, for a total of 270 personnel. That’s roughly equivalent to, say, a tank battalion, both in personnel and deck-spot footprint.
So, if you're looking for a rough conversion ratio for how many fighter wings you can pick up by giving up ground troops, it's about 1 armor battalion per wing.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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