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Dredwulf60
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Whill
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 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Okay, here are the speeder bikes and swoop. |
Thank you very much.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I've downgraded the swoop's maximum altitude (the SW Sourcebook topped it out at 350 meters) to make it more like a souped speeder bike than a miniature airspeeder. |
I concur. No need for a swoop to go that high.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Incidentally, I'm also considering changing the Scale name for this class of vehicles from "Flitter" to "Swoop", and grouping them all under the "Swoop Operation" skill, since the controls on speeder bikes bear more similarity to swoops than they do to landspeeders. |
But but but... Actually that makes a lot of sense.
But that differentiation further presses the issue of also making landspeeders and airspeeders be different skills (even if most of them remain the same scale). One consideration in my mind for splitting skills is, does it make sense for someone to be able to be good at only each part and not the others. I can see someone being good at bikes/flitters/swoops and not landspeeders, and also someone being good at landspeeders and not swoops. That one checks out for me. It's easy to see someone being good at landspeeders but not airspeeders. But I have a much harder time imagining someone being good at airspeeders and not landspeeders. Airspeeders have a whole other dimension involved, so airspeeders mostly seem harder to operate, not necessarily a different repulsorlift skill. I would think landspeeders would be cake for an ace airspeeder pilot.
I know most will disagree with me on this, but that's my logic for starfighters. Starfighters just seem more complex and harder than space transports to fly well, so it seems to me they need higher skills, not necessarily a different spaceship skill than space transports, so I recombined Starfighter and Space Transports into Spaceship Operation (while capital ships remain separate as an advanced skill). I just have have a hard time imagining an ace starfighter pilot having a hard time with a space transport.
I'm really resistant to differentiating too much skillwise because in general I tend to prefer my skills to be more broad and general than 2e RAW in a lot of cases, in the spirit of 1e and the IAG. I know I don't want to make airspeeders an advanced skill. But we have the base attribute for very general ability and skill specializations for finer differentiation, so it's just a matter of where we want to draw all the lines. Argh, now I'm questioning my skill set again...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | But I have a much harder time imagining someone being good at airspeeders and not landspeeders. Airspeeders have a whole other dimension involved, so airspeeders mostly seem harder to operate, not necessarily a different repulsorlift skill. I would think landspeeders would be cake for an ace airspeeder pilot. |
Funny story. In Tom Wolfe's iconic novel The Right Stuff, which is probably the best outsider's window into the fighter pilot mentality, he reveals that fighter pilots often felt the exact same way, yet it was often not the case. Pilots would be overconfident in their abilities and wreck cars and motorcycles all the time.
As such, I think the RAW would work pretty well in this situation. A character's Mech attribute may give them certain natural advantages (and I'd even consider giving them a bonus to operate, for example, a Space Transport, so long as they are ~4D or more above-attribute in Starfighter Piloting), but there is enough differences in the actual operation of the vehicle to require training and experience to be able to do it right.
I'm reminded of my experience as a truck driver. Yes, it uses the same controls as a car (steering wheel, throttle, brake, etc.) but it requires learning a different set of reflexes than a car. You have to remember how much longer the truck takes to decelerate than a car, you have to remember to turn wide around obstacles, you have to remember not to make sudden corrections if you drift out of your lane (a sudden jerk on the steering wheel can send a big rig out of control). And that's not something you can just throw someone with Automobile Operation 5D behind the wheel of a big rig and expect it to be the equivalent of Commercial Vehicle Operation. It takes time and training and experience, and not everyone has what it takes.
| Quote: | | I'm really resistant to differentiating too much skillwise because in general I tend to prefer my skills to be more broad and general than 2e RAW in a lot of cases, in the spirit of 1e and the IAG. I know I don't want to make airspeeders an advanced skill. But we have the base attribute for very general ability and skill specializations for finer differentiation, so it's just a matter of where we want to draw all the lines. Argh, now I'm questioning my skill set again... |
Actually, on all the landspeeder stats I've posted so far, I've made their base skill Landspeeder Operation, not Repulsorlift Operation. I intend to do the same for Airspeeders once I get to them...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm really resistant to differentiating too much skillwise because in general I tend to prefer my skills to be more broad and general than 2e RAW in a lot of cases, in the spirit of 1e and the IAG. I know I don't want to make airspeeders an advanced skill. But we have the base attribute for very general ability and skill specializations for finer differentiation, so it's just a matter of where we want to draw all the lines. Argh, now I'm questioning my skill set again... |
Actually, on all the landspeeder stats I've posted so far, I've made their base skill Landspeeder Operation, not Repulsorlift Operation. I intend to do the same for Airspeeders once I get to them... |
So you do have three repulsorlift skills, right?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | So you do have three repulsorlift skills, right? |
Correct. Landspeeder Operation, Swoop Operation and Airspeeder Piloting.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:07 am Post subject: |
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Which of those 'skills' do you see pod racers coming under?
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Well, not to be a pain, but I just don't imagine that in a universe/galaxy/fictional setting where interstellar travel is a way of life that the skill set for "piloting" would need such specific variation.
In other words, look at the way we do things in real life: new technology builds on the old so that the market will receive it.
Imagine if the next model year (2017) of cars went from having steering wheels and gas pedals to joy sticks and hand throttles. No one would buy it because they would have to learn how to drive all over again. But when we compare the capabilities of modern cars against those of 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, we see massive, massive differences. But anyone with a driver licence can get into a 1946 Ford and drive it without a problem (a short acclimation period to the difference in response/handling, etc, but otherwise, its the same thing).
In fact, stuff gets easier, not harder: we went from manual/clutch to automatic to continuously variable transmissions... and now, "manuals" only require a flick of a paddle on the steering column and no foot work (don't even have to let go of the steering wheel).
When regular civilians have access to starships, it really seems to me that having skill in one (perhaps the harder one) would transfer over to the other.
I'm thinking that, if I ever get around to writing up vehicle combat, I will make fewer skills, and specify specializations according the the class of vehicle, rather than the model (so it will run parallel to the blaster skill and other major skills in the game). But for now, I'm wrapping up tactical combat and then moving on to the "Jedi arts." |
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | Well, not to be a pain, but I just don't imagine that in a universe/galaxy/fictional setting where interstellar travel is a way of life that the skill set for "piloting" would need such specific variation.
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Well...we do live in a world where flying from continent to continent is a way of life for some. But we still have cars AND jets.
I can't imagine that in Star Wars Galaxy that interstellar travel is any more (or less) a way of life for your typical galactic denizen than intercontinental flight is for us.
Perhaps the movies bear out your position though. We see anakin skywalker operating his pod racer and then in the same movie we see him intuitively fly a space fighter.
Is this because he is strong with the force, or because his high skill in one is easily transferable to another? The controls look nothing alike.
The real test then is to see if Han Solo, a great star pilot, could operate a pod racer with the same degree of skill.
In the EU he was an accomplished swoop rider...
From a game perspective, I do not want players piling all of their CPs into 'Piloting' and having everyone jetting around in anything and everything with more or less equal skill. A great swoop rider is a great freighter pilot is a great starfighter pilot is a great repulsor pogo-stick pilot is not what I want. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Those could be reflected by having a high Mech attribute..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Which of those 'skills' do you see pod racers coming under? |
Of these three, it would most likely be Landspeeder Operation, although an Advanced Skill for Podracer Operation would not be amiss.
Personally, I'd like to see vehicles also have a Base Difficulty to operate. Here's the bare bones:1). Vehicles have a Difficulty rating, which indicates how much of a challenge they are. A simple landspeeder would be Very Easy, whereas an A-Wing or the Millennium Falcon would be in the Very Difficult to Heroic range.
2). To perform a maneuver, the driver/pilot rolls just his Piloting skill against the base Difficulty. On a success, he rolls the craft's Maneuverability and stacks it with his Piloting skill roll to perform a Maneuver. On a failure, compare the result to the Movement Mishap table.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Well, not to be a pain, but I just don't imagine that in a universe/galaxy/fictional setting where interstellar travel is a way of life that the skill set for "piloting" would need such specific variation. |
We have separate skills for Repulsorlift Operation and Starfighter Piloting, yet both operate on repulsorlifts.
My point in suggesting the division is that airspeeders operate very much like aircraft while landspeeders operate very much like cars, and being good at driving a car doesn't make you good at flying an airplane. Operating in a 3D environment is a big change from a 2D environment.
On top of that, because of how I distinguish between how repulsorlifts function on landspeeders versus airspeeders, there are actually two different kinds of drives in use, surface effect drive fields for landspeeders and gravitic impellers for airspeeders. As such, IMO, that is sufficient distinction to put them into two different categories.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Sure, yes. I just feel like in a universe where a regular person will likely switch from airspeeders to landspeeders and space transports all in the same day, it stands to reason that manufacturers would do their best to minimize the differences in operation if for no other reason than to get folks to buy "one of each" or to at least make their products available to to wider consumer base.
The Courescant speeder chase in Ep 2 was airspeeders, and the whole planet was proficient in their use. Anakin certainly was, anyway. And then you have pod racers, and land speeders which he could also pilot with skill. And of course, Starfighters (Naboo) which he just got into and apparently having only pod racing experience survived a space battle ("get us off this auto pilot; it's gonna get us both killed.")
"Whose gonna fly it, kid, you?"
"You bet I could!" (never flown a spacecraft before). Fast forward to Battle of Yavin.
We also see Padme flying escort in a starfighter at the beginning of Ep 2, and of course she has that personal Nubian (Space Transpot) that she flies around in, in Ep. 3.
Obi Wan can pilot a watercraft without any specialized training ("Whats a bongo?"), as well as a starfighter with adequate skill to survive two space fights (Ep 2 and 3).
In my opinion, a more appropriate solution would be to have fewer (maybe just 1) piloting skills, with one or two advanced skills to cover combat flying. In fact, I think I'll put that on my to do list. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Dredwulf60 wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | Well, not to be a pain, but I just don't imagine that in a universe/galaxy/fictional setting where interstellar travel is a way of life that the skill set for "piloting" would need such specific variation.
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Well...we do live in a world where flying from continent to continent is a way of life for some. But we still have cars AND jets.
I can't imagine that in Star Wars Galaxy that interstellar travel is any more (or less) a way of life for your typical galactic denizen than intercontinental flight is for us.
Perhaps the movies bear out your position though. We see anakin skywalker operating his pod racer and then in the same movie we see him intuitively fly a space fighter.
Is this because he is strong with the force, or because his high skill in one is easily transferable to another? The controls look nothing alike.
The real test then is to see if Han Solo, a great star pilot, could operate a pod racer with the same degree of skill.
In the EU he was an accomplished swoop rider...
From a game perspective, I do not want players piling all of their CPs into 'Piloting' and having everyone jetting around in anything and everything with more or less equal skill. A great swoop rider is a great freighter pilot is a great starfighter pilot is a great repulsor pogo-stick pilot is not what I want. |
Specializations sort that out for you. If a PC chooses not to specialize, put him up against an equally experienced villain who did specialize. With the same number of CPs invested, the villain would be head and shoulders above the PC in skill.
In any case, there can be separate skills, but, see my previous post above this one for what I think solves the problem.
For me, I want various types of craft gto be accessible to my players so that there can be a greater variety of chases, battles, and environments to have fun in. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
Personally, I'd like to see vehicles also have a Base Difficulty to operate. Here's the bare bones:
1). Vehicles have a Difficulty rating, which indicates how much of a challenge they are. |
I can see that. Similar to how Melee weapons have a base diff to use (or the enemy's parry roll which ever is greater)...
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: |
Personally, I'd like to see vehicles also have a Base Difficulty to operate. Here's the bare bones:
1). Vehicles have a Difficulty rating, which indicates how much of a challenge they are. |
I can see that. Similar to how Melee weapons have a base diff to use (or the enemy's parry roll which ever is greater)... |
Except that base difficulty is already determined by terrain. So perhaps it would be better as a base modifier per vehicle, and then you're still basing the difficulty on terrain as in RAW.
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