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Impossible or just Extremely Difficult?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:13 pm    Post subject: Impossible or just Extremely Difficult? Reply with quote

One of the (many) things I've been iffy on with 2R&E is that, in at least two places in the RAW, WEG makes an absolute prohibition of action. By which I mean it says, in essence, "if you perform this action, you can perform no other action that round." This is used for both the Full Reaction rules and moving at All-Out Speed. Basically, what WEG is saying here is that, it doesn't matter who or what you are, not even Anakin Skywalker spending a Force Point could perform this action.

I disagree.

My thinking is that what WEG calls impossible should, instead, be very, very difficult, maybe with a +10 or +20 modifier to the Difficulty, or an increased MAP penalty for performing a Full Reaction or going All-Out while performing another action.

Is this something anyone else has messed around with, and if so, what method did you use?
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Savar
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Impossible or just Very Difficult? Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
One of the (many) things I've been iffy on with 2R&E is that, in at least two places in the RAW, WEG makes an absolute prohibition of action. By which I mean it says, in essence, "if you perform this action, you can perform no other action that round." This is used for both the Full Reaction rules and moving at All-Out Speed. Basically, what WEG is saying here is that, it doesn't matter who or what you are, not even Anakin Skywalker spending a Force Point could perform this action.

I disagree.

My thinking is that what WEG calls impossible should, instead, be very, very difficult, maybe with a +10 or +20 modifier to the Difficulty, or an increased MAP penalty for performing a Full Reaction or going All-Out while performing another action.

Is this something anyone else has messed around with, and if so, what method did you use?


I think the words FULL and ALL-OUT are the clue. The connotation of them words are a complete effort with nothing to spare.

edit

now maybe spending a force point would let you give more then 100%
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:09 am    Post subject: Re: Impossible or just Very Difficult? Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
I think the words FULL and ALL-OUT are the clue. The connotation of them words are a complete effort with nothing to spare.
CRMcNeill wrote:
I disagree.


Quote:
now maybe spending a force point would let you give more then 100%

Or, as I'm suggesting, setting the Difficulty so high that it practically demands that the character spend a FP to succeed. IMO, this is more in keeping with the RAW.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:20 am    Post subject: Re: Impossible or just Very Difficult? Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Savar wrote:
I think the words FULL and ALL-OUT are the clue. The connotation of them words are a complete effort with nothing to spare.
CRMcNeill wrote:
I disagree.


Quote:
now maybe spending a force point would let you give more then 100%

Or, as I'm suggesting, setting the Difficulty so high that it practically demands that the character spend a FP to succeed. IMO, this is more in keeping with the RAW.


like some of the force powers like Force Storm?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, although that is also another good example of the WEG double standard: It is more likely that Emperor Palpatine can summon a destructive vortex of Force power from hyperspace than that he could use Force Lightning while making a full Dodge, or fire the weapons on a TIE Interceptor while flying at All-Out Speed...
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Savar
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The concentration power is another, only thing done, in a weird way.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For full dodge, I draw a hard fast line. Only action allowed if declared. Spending a force point to dodge is way more of a commitment than a regular full dodge, so I don't see a problem there in particular.

As for moving all out, I get where the RAW is coming from, but it seems to me that certainthings should be allowed. Consider someone charging headlong into melee combat, or else trying to "buldoze" his way through a crowd... or even trying to catch a football like a wide receiver... or out maneuvering the opposition while still running as fast as he can (kindo of like a "brawling parry" to avoid the tackle), etc.

In some cases, Id say the speed actually confers a bonus... such as jumping across a chasm or trying to dodge a grenade that hasn't exploded yet, etc.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Impossible or just Very Difficult? Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
One of the (many) things I've been iffy on with 2R&E is that, in at least two places in the RAW, WEG makes an absolute prohibition of action. By which I mean it says, in essence, "if you perform this action, you can perform no other action that round." This is used for both the Full Reaction rules and moving at All-Out Speed. Basically, what WEG is saying here is that, it doesn't matter who or what you are, not even Anakin Skywalker spending a Force Point could perform this action.

I disagree.

My thinking is that what WEG calls impossible should, instead, be very, very difficult, maybe with a +10 or +20 modifier to the Difficulty, or an increased MAP penalty for performing a Full Reaction or going All-Out while performing another action.

Is this something anyone else has messed around with, and if so, what method did you use?


I think the words FULL and ALL-OUT are the clue. The connotation of them words are a complete effort with nothing to spare.

edit

now maybe spending a force point would let you give more then 100%


I agree, the fact they do specify all out etc, means that is all you have to give/concentrate on. Heck there are some skills themselves that state use of it is a full combat round action (First aid!), while others list just one round which can therefore be used multiple times with MAPs..
As for poping a force point enabling you to give more than 100%, i disagree.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is a subject that will have differing thoughts with out consensus but having the conversation will open differ ways of thinking.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Impossible or just Very Difficult? Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
I think this is a subject that will have differing thoughts with out consensus but having the conversation will open differ ways of thinking.

Consensus is not our goal here anyway. We're just here to share and discuss.

CRMcNeill wrote:
One of the (many) things I've been iffy on with 2R&E is that, in at least two places in the RAW, WEG makes an absolute prohibition of action. By which I mean it says, in essence, "if you perform this action, you can perform no other action that round." This is used for both the Full Reaction rules and moving at All-Out Speed. Basically, what WEG is saying here is that, it doesn't matter who or what you are, not even Anakin Skywalker spending a Force Point could perform this action.

I disagree.

My thinking is that what WEG calls impossible should, instead, be very, very difficult, maybe with a +10 or +20 modifier to the Difficulty, or an increased MAP penalty for performing a Full Reaction or going All-Out while performing another action.

Is this something anyone else has messed around with, and if so, what method did you use?

I don't have a problem with RAW limiting these actions and don't see any real need to change it.

If you want to have a high dodge for a round and also do other stuff, then spend your Force Point do all your actions with maps. If you absolutely must have as high a dodge as possible for a round then spend your FP and full dodge if that's more important then doing anything else.

If you used this mod for dodging, the benefit that you gain from full dodge (roll added to difficulties instead of substituting for it) would be eaten up by the maps and additional modifier, so you would be giving up more then gaining compared to just going by RAW.

As far as all-out, that is double the highest speed you can go and still do other things in RAW, so I can see keeping the RAW option but also maybe having another option that allows other actions at a severe penalty (whether that is flat difficulty modifier or double maps or something). But I still don't see a big need for it because the adventures move at the speed of the plot, so high speed should usually be fast enough for my game if I want it to be.

There doesn't seem to be anything game-breaking with either of these mod ideas, but I just don't see the necessity.
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with RAW on this one. Moving all-out takes all your concentration. Want proof? Go outside, sprint for 5 seconds, and mark your distance. Now sprint for 5 seconds and try to do something in that time. Your distance will greatly decrease- meaning you have dropped that last move in favor of the action you just took.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Giving this a bump. As I've mentioned here and elsewhere, I'm not a fan of placing absolute limits on what players can and can't do, particularly when it comes to Full Actions. I much prefer an open ended system where players may attempt just about anything, but that some actions are effectively impossible due to either high Difficulty or heavy penalties.

What I'm thinking in this case is, rather than having an absolute prohibition on performing other actions while performing a full reaction, apply an additional -2D to any MAP penalty for performing other actions. For example, if a character was flying a ship at All-Out speed and wanted to perform a Maneuver of some kind, they would suffer a total MAP of -3D, rather than just -1D.

The penalty would also stack if combining Full Actions, so that attempting a Full Dodge while flying at All-Out would come with a total penalty of -5D (-2D for each Full Action, plus the MAP for performing two actions in a round).

IMO, the -3D penalty would make certain actions effectively impossible for most NPCs and low-level PCs, while making them somewhat feasible - if still risky - for mid-level characters and higher.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

-2d additional is a little weak imo. IN sparks, we allow folks to go "Full auto" on certain weaponry (like repeating blasters or machine gun slug-throwers), but doing so imposes at least a -4d penalty, PLUS the recoil of the gun. So IF i could ever see letting someone do something else, while full dodging, or running / moving all out, they'd have at least a -4d penalty to me. BUT at no time would i ever agree, to someone doing a full dodge WHILE GOING all out..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

-2D is in addition to the base MAP, so it's really a -3D. Considering the Difficulties already involved for things like flying at All-Out, a character would need to have pretty high skill levels in order to succeed.

And doing a Full Dodge while going All-Out would be a -5D penalty, not to mention the base Difficulty of the terrain involved. Of course, the opportunities for spectacular failures on the Movement Mishap charts could be a lot of fun. Imagine a character trying to Dodge while running at All-Out and running into a wall or some other obstacle...
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To some extend it should be allowed, especially flying, shooting, dodge. But performing a surgery and security tasks with occasional full dodge at the same time is rather out of option, right?*

*Regular playable character used for reference, not super AI capable of extreme multitasking and able to control several bots remotely.
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