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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Darklighter79 wrote: | To some extend it should be allowed, especially flying, shooting, dodge. But performing a surgery and security tasks with occasional full dodge at the same time is rather out of option, right?*
*Regular playable character used for reference, not super AI capable of extreme multitasking and able to control several bots remotely. |
This is where we get into the difference between rounds and scenes. Some skills - particularly combat ones - can be used on a round-by-round basis, while others represent longer, more drawn out actions. Performing surgery or hacking a security system could potentially run minutes or hours on just a few rolls. If a combat sequence occurred that interrupted such a task, I would probably A) allow the character to roll initiative at a -1D MAP and resolve combat as normal, then B) once combat is resolved, allow the character to pick up where he left off on his Medicine or Security skill rolls, baring any complications.
EDIT: But ultimately, yes, GMs should exercise their discretion w/r/t what sorts of skills may be combined using this rule.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Darklighter79 wrote: | To some extend it should be allowed, especially flying, shooting, dodge. But performing a surgery and security tasks with occasional full dodge at the same time is rather out of option, right?*
*Regular playable character used for reference, not super AI capable of extreme multitasking and able to control several bots remotely. |
 Haha! |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Darklighter79 wrote: | To some extend it should be allowed, especially flying, shooting, dodge. But performing a surgery and security tasks with occasional full dodge at the same time is rather out of option, right?*
*Regular playable character used for reference, not super AI capable of extreme multitasking and able to control several bots remotely. |
This is where we get into the difference between rounds and scenes. Some skills - particularly combat ones - can be used on a round-by-round basis, while others represent longer, more drawn out actions. Performing surgery or hacking a security system could potentially run minutes or hours on just a few rolls. If a combat sequence occurred that interrupted such a task, I would probably A) allow the character to roll initiative at a -1D MAP and resolve combat as normal, then B) once combat is resolved, allow the character to pick up where he left off on his Medicine or Security skill rolls, baring any complications.
EDIT: But ultimately, yes, GMs should exercise their discretion w/r/t what sorts of skills may be combined using this rule. |
I like the idea, but I'm honestly torn on it.
To me, a "full dodge" (for example), represents the character putting all his eggs in one basket. There is no other priority than dodging. It is the only thing that matters, and the character has no interest in trying to do anything else at the same time. It is the most desperate of moves, reserved for when heroics are doomed to fail and when absolutely nothing else is more important than dodging that shot... and the character is probably out of force points/character points, to boot.
Now, one thing I could see as a "way to interpret" a scene like a desperate dodge in conjunction with a blaster shot (or whatever) would be like this:
Character declares a shot with blaster and a dodge, and tells the GM, the blaster shot is just to suppress, but if it hits, great. So the character takes (for example) a -2D penalty on the blaster shot, but no penalty on the dodge roll (that is, the MAP that would have applied to his dodge roll is instead piled on the MAP applied to his blaster shot).
As an idea, it needs work, but I think there might be something there. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:36 am Post subject: |
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IMO, it depends on how you are using the word “Full.” Yours is certainly a viable interpretation, but it could also mean a Reaction that covers the entire - or Full - combat round. Certainly more difficult, but also allows dramatic scenes like gun-hand characters diving out of the way of multiple attackers while squeezing off blaster shots.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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EDIT: Changed “Very Difficult” in the Topic Header to “Extremely Difficult”, to avoid confusion...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | IMO, it depends on how you are using the word “Full.” Yours is certainly a viable interpretation, but it could also mean a Reaction that covers the entire - or Full - combat round. Certainly more difficult, but also allows dramatic scenes like gun-hand characters diving out of the way of multiple attackers while squeezing off blaster shots. |
To me, full means just that. All your attention's spent on doing that one action.
Which is why when doing full dodges, you don't move anywhere..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | To me, full means just that. All your attention's spent on doing that one action. |
I've decided to interpret it as simply a more elaborate Dodge that covers multiple attacks.
| garhkal wrote: | | Which is why when doing full dodges, you don't move anywhere.. |
Says who? You can actually perform a normal Move along with a Full Dodge so long as the terrain cooperates.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:17 am Post subject: |
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Says the book..
page 90, r&e
| Quote: | Full Reaction. A character can make a "full reaction."
A full reaction — dodge, melee parry, brawling
parry, lightsaber, vehicle dodge or starship dodge —
can be the only action the character makes in the
entire round. |
Movement's an action, even if its a no-roll action.
Then on page 101
| Quote: | Every character and creature has a Move score: it's
how many meters per round the character moves
while walking. (Most humans have a Move of 10).
Moving is an action |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Well, that's just silly, and even more in need of a change, then. Why would someone being shot at just flail around like an idiot without moving anywhere?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Says the book..
page 90, r&e
| Quote: | Full Reaction. A character can make a "full reaction."
A full reaction — dodge, melee parry, brawling
parry, lightsaber, vehicle dodge or starship dodge —
can be the only action the character makes in the
entire round. |
Movement's an action, even if its a no-roll action.
Then on page 101
| Quote: | Every character and creature has a Move score: it's
how many meters per round the character moves
while walking. (Most humans have a Move of 10).
Moving is an action |
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Well, since we are talking about house rules, here...
We all know that D6 has some funky contradictions.
For example, a character making a full reaction and thereby "not going anywhere" conflicts with the idea of using a piloting skill or a jet pack skill to make a full reaction.
We've tossed this around before: all ranged combat reaction skills are also movement skills... except for dodge. I don't have a problem, with, for example, a character armed only with a vibro shiv using a full dodge to leap, tumble, roll toward a shooter in order to close distance while also avoiding being shot so that they can make an attack next turn.
As a GM, though, I might require two rolls for this: the dodge roll itself, and an acrobatics roll (or some such). I'd MAP both rolls, and require that both be successful in order to not get hit. Taking a full dodge would be part of the "penalty" as well: the character does gain the benefits, but he can do nothing else that round.
Back to what CRM is saying, he's looking at the full dodge as spending a whole round avoiding being shot while also doing other things. To me, this doesn't really make sense (the character can already "dodge" and do other things... the one dodge roll is good for the whole round). However, as a house rule, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
(I sometimes come off as disapproving of certain suggestions, but that's not really my intent in the house rules forum: I'm actually just testing for balance issues or proof of concept or logical problems that may arise.)
Conceptually, I just can't get my head around this particular suggestion, but... I suppose if it's balanced enough, it could work fine.
In my opinion, though, full reactions aren't even really well written by the original rules.
I think a better way to handle full reactions would be to simply treat them like a force point was spent: that reaction roll is doubled for the round, but the character may do nothing else. We already know that spending a force point represents the character doing his absolute best... and so does taking a full reaction. By RAW, a full reaction is less valuable against a punch than it is against a lightsaber or blaster rifle (the difficulty for a brawling attack is very easy so you only get to add +5 to the roll... against a lightsaber, you'd get to add +20).
I know that's besides the point, but it might actually jive well with what CRM is trying to do here:
I wonder if in cases like what he is suggesting, perhaps instead of applying additional MAPs, we might just add the weapon's base difficulty to the target's reaction roll to determine a hit (the normal MAPs of course, still apply to the attack roll on top of the difficulty increase). This is sort of a reversal of the RAW full reaction rules. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | page 90, r&e
| Quote: | Full Reaction. A character can make a "full reaction."
A full reaction — dodge, melee parry, brawling
parry, lightsaber, vehicle dodge or starship dodge —
can be the only action the character makes in the
entire round. |
Movement's an action, even if its a no-roll action.
Then on page 101
| Quote: | Every character and creature has a Move score: it's
how many meters per round the character moves
while walking. (Most humans have a Move of 10).
Moving is an action |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Well, that's just silly, and even more in need of a change, then. Why would someone being shot at just flail around like an idiot without moving anywhere? |
But what garhkal posted is not the extent of the RAW. Yes, a full reaction is the only "action" a character can take in a round, and movement is an "action". But moving up to half your Move stat is a "free action" in up to Moderate terrain per R&E p.80 and p.101. "Free" Actions explicitly do not count as an action in RAW.
Since it is an idiotic idea that a dodge would not cover any distance, it only make sense to allow a full dodging character to end up half the Move away from where he started, at least up to Moderate terrain. With all the zigging and zagging they may have actually travelled a greater distance, but in my game the net result of a full dodge is that it can end half a Move away from where they started.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I've decided to interpret it as simply a more elaborate Dodge that covers multiple attacks. |
| Naaman wrote: | | Back to what CRM is saying, he's looking at the full dodge as spending a whole round avoiding being shot while also doing other things. To me, this doesn't really make sense (the character can already "dodge" and do other things... the one dodge roll is good for the whole round). |
Agreed. When a character is attacked in RAW, a normal dodge applies to that attack and all attacks of that type for the rest of the round. So Full Dodge and normal Dodge both already can cover multiple attacks in RAW. The difference is that Full Dodge is added to the attacker's difficulty, while a normal Dodge replaces the difficulty numbers. And a Full Dodge must be declared when it is the player's turn to declare his first action for the round, and normal Dodge can be a reaction at any point in the round the character is attacked. They both are effective from the point they are declared until the end of the round (unless knocked down before the end of the round).
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Giving this a bump. As I've mentioned here and elsewhere, I'm not a fan of placing absolute limits on what players can and can't do, particularly when it comes to Full Actions. I much prefer an open ended system where players may attempt just about anything, but that some actions are effectively impossible due to either high Difficulty or heavy penalties. |
Full Dodge is still dodging. It doesn't do anything that can't be done with a normal Dodge. They just factor into the attack difficulty differently. If you don't want the limits of Full Dodge (like if you want to do other normal actions), just do a regular Dodge instead of a Full Dodge. There are other ways to boost a normal Dodge, like CPs and FPs, and still not have the limits of Full Dodge. And like I pointed out above, Full Dodge should still allow any reasonable free actions.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | When a character is attacked in RAW, a normal dodge applies to that attack and all attacks of that type for the rest of the round. |
What's your reference for this? I've always read the RAW as saying that a normal Dodge counts as a standard action that must be rolled against each individual attack, with compounding MAPs. Not that I think this is a good rule, either. There is certainly room for some sort of interim step between Normal Dodge and Full Dodge where a character Dodges multiple attacks by a single action, but I don't recall ever seeing something like that in the rules. That's why I suggested the rule change on Full Dodge.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Wait, what? I know its been mentioned around here several times, and entire discussions have relied on this very aspect of the rule (that one reaction covers all the attacks against you of they same kind--melee or ranged, more or less).
You haven't said anything like this before.  |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | Wait, what? I know its been mentioned around here several times, and entire discussions have relied on this very aspect of the rule (that one reaction covers all the attacks against you of they same kind--melee or ranged, more or less).
You haven't said anything like this before. |
No. I don't always follow every topic here; this is the first time I've noticed it come up, so I re-read the description on Dodge and the use of reaction skills, and I can't find that reference. I also don't recall ever seeing anything like it, so I always figured it was either one Dodge skill roll per attack or a single Dodge roll against all attacks that round but you were completely unable to do anything else.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | When a character is attacked in RAW, a normal dodge applies to that attack and all attacks of that type for the rest of the round. |
What's your reference for this? I've always read the RAW as saying that a normal Dodge counts as a standard action that must be rolled against each individual attack, with compounding MAPs. Not that I think this is a good rule, either. There is certainly room for some sort of interim step between Normal Dodge and Full Dodge where a character Dodges multiple attacks by a single action, but I don't recall ever seeing something like that in the rules. |
Always? Have you only read 1e? Blue Vader 2e had normal Dodge apply to all attacks of that type, but after seeing the roll you can back out and just let all attackers have their range difficulties. It is still all or nothing. The difference in R&E is you can't back out of it once you do it.
What's my reference? The two Reaction Skills sections in R&E (one in Chapter 4 The Rules, and one in Chapter 5 Combat and Injuries). The page references are the Reaction Skills tan box on p.79, and the last paragraph of the Reaction Skills tan box on p.90 (left column):
| Quote: | | When using a reaction skill, the character makes the skill roll. (Don't forget to add penalties for multiple actions.) The roll is the attacker's new difficulty number. (This difficulty number is in effect for all attacks of that type made against the character for the rest of the round.) |
The example under it supports this. At the top of the next column, it differentiates Full Reaction by emphasizing that the roll is added to the difficulty (instead of merely replacing the difficulty). That's the trade-off you get for it being your only action. When Full Dodging, you can't defend if you get attacked by a different attack type, like melee or brawling.
REUP apes R&E. Normal Dodges haven't applied to individual attacks since 1e, so in RAW both dodges apply to all range weapon attacks from the point of the Dodge forward.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | this is the first time I've noticed it come up, so I re-read the description on Dodge and the use of reaction skills, and I can't find that reference. I also don't recall ever seeing anything like it, so I always figured it was either one Dodge skill roll per attack or a single Dodge roll against all attacks that round but you were completely unable to do anything else. |
This has come up many times here before. You're looking in R&E, right? See above for the page numbers.
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