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Naaman
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 Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I can't get to my book right now... but if no one supplies the reference in the meantime, I will eventually.
I can't recall whether it's found in a skill description or in a rules example of combat at the moment (or somewhere else entirely).
However, what would it change if you found out that a single reaction skill is good for the whole round? |
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | Well, I can't get to my book right now... but if no one supplies the reference in the meantime, I will eventually.
I can't recall whether it's found in a skill description or in a rules example of combat at the moment (or somewhere else entirely). |
I posted 1 minute before you did. See the bottom of the previous page of this thread for the page references.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:13 am Post subject: |
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I'm amazed I missed that all these years. I'm assuming that the GM for our gaming group when we transitioned from 1E to 2E kept the old rule and I never bothered to question it. In fairness, it wasn't placed all that prominently (in parenthesis at the end of a paragraph near the bottom of the page). Something like that should've been in bold print...
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:16 am Post subject: |
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That being said, I'm not convinced it negates my concept in its entirety. While the argument is certainly there for Full Reactions and for All-Out Movement while running, a vehicle moving at All-Out would not necessarily require maximum effort from the operator. Just because a vehicle is being pushed to its performance limits does not require that the driver / pilot is being similarly pushed. Would someone like Anakin Skywalker have his piloting skill pushed to the limit by flying a Space 4 freighter at All-Out?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:11 am Post subject: |
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If you will allow automobiles as an analogy, I think you will see the reasonableness in an affirmative amswer to your question.
A vehicle's maximum speed is not the determining factor of what the pilot's "limits" are.
If I put you behind the wheel of a Ferrari, and ask you to operate it at "all out" speed in live traffic, that scenario would look far different than if the same was asked of you in an 80,000 lb. tractor/trailor. Just because the rig tops out at less than half the speed of the Ferrari doesn't mean it takes less effort/concentration than the Ferrari.
Now, imagine both vehicles in a hostile fire scenario, and it becomes clear that the Ferrari is actually more feasible as an evasive implement (which is the opposite of what your Space 4 scenario suggests). But the big rig is obviously the better bullet absorber/deflecter.
Long ago, I posted some ideas for race/chase rules using real life cars as examples of the idea.... got 0 replies though. It's not directly reated to this topic on full reactions, but you may find some concepts there that get the wheels spinning. I'll see if I can find it. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:45 am Post subject: |
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But you aren't factoring in the skill of the driver. A skilled driver can, for example, take a vehicle all the way out to the ragged edge of its performance envelope without losing control of it. He hasn't reached the limits of his skill, but he has pushed the vehicle to its limits. This isn't to say that things can't go wrong, but it also doesn't mean that he shouldn't be capable of dividing his attention if his skill level is high enough.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Let's stick with autos for this next one.
To me, "all out speed," for rules purposes, refers to the maximum speed performance of the vehicle.
When we are driving, our tires can perform three functions, and up to two of those functions at a time. You have 100% of your tires' available traction to work with, and you can accelerate, decelerate, or turn. The more of your traction you commit to any one of those tasks (say, accelerating), the less you have available to turn with, and vice versa.
As I interpret the notion of all out speed in the game, it means committing 100% of your tires' traction to acceleration (which includes maintaining the vehicles top speed for these purposes). There is no traction available to do anything else, no matter how skilled the pilot, the vehicle just cannot do it.
For Star Wars purposes, substitute tires and traction with... whatever tech and its limitations. |
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Naaman
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'm amazed I missed that all these years. I'm assuming that the GM for our gaming group when we transitioned from 1E to 2E kept the old rule and I never bothered to question it. In fairness, it wasn't placed all that prominently (in parenthesis at the end of a paragraph near the bottom of the page). Something like that should've been in bold print... |
Many groups i've gamed in, know of that "The dodge is effective vs all attacks of that TYPE" part of dodging That's why many players opt for multiple weapons, so some shoot the enemy with blasters, some with flamers, some toss grenades and some use other weapons.. THAT WAY the dodges (or LS parries) are not as effective against some as they are vs others..
| Naaman wrote: | If you will allow automobiles as an analogy, I think you will see the reasonableness in an affirmative amswer to your question.
A vehicle's maximum speed is not the determining factor of what the pilot's "limits" are.
If I put you behind the wheel of a Ferrari, and ask you to operate it at "all out" speed in live traffic, that scenario would look far different than if the same was asked of you in an 80,000 lb. tractor/trailor. Just because the rig tops out at less than half the speed of the Ferrari doesn't mean it takes less effort/concentration than the Ferrari. |
Hell, i'd say driving the lorry would take more concentration.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| It'd a tough call for me: driving a Ferrari at 205 mph in live traffic would be a... spiritual experience, I think. Not to take anything away from a 12- speed, hitced, 6-axle death wagon weighing 80 grand going 90 in live traffic... on the surface streets. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | It'd a tough call for me: driving a Ferrari at 205 mph in live traffic would be a... spiritual experience, I think. Not to take anything away from a 12- speed, hitced, 6-axle death wagon weighing 80 grand going 90 in live traffic... on the surface streets. |
Yeah, no, thank you. The fastest I have ever gone in a big rig was 87 mph, and that was on US95 coming south out of Gold Field, NV (long, smooth downslope that runs straight as an arrow all the way to the horizon). Put it in Georgia Overdrive and just let it roll.
Rigs feel funny at 87...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Let's stick with autos for this next one. |
The problem I have here is two-fold:1) Per the RAW, All-Out covers the entire upper half of a vehicle's potential movement speed. What you're saying makes sense, but I operate vehicles in the upper 50% of their maximum speed on a regular basis, and am still able to split my attention and perform other tasks (I try not to, it's not safe, but it is possible). So, if the vehicle were operating all the way up at 4x its base Move, then sure, I could see why it might not be able to maneuver. But since All-Out covers the entire range of speed between 2x Base Move and 4x Base Move, there is leeway to work with.
2). We're playing in a cinematic universe, not a realistic one. As I have said elsewhere in this topic, I prefer a system where characters can, under certain heroic circumstances, perform seemingly impossible tasks and still come out the other side alive. I'd much rather have a system where a particular act is made effectively impossible due to penalties and/or high Difficulty levels, but that if a character chooses to spend a Force Point, there is a chance of pulling it off. That's dramatic and exciting, something that the players will reminisce about later. It makes for fun storytelling.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | It'd a tough call for me: driving a Ferrari at 205 mph in live traffic would be a... spiritual experience, I think. Not to take anything away from a 12- speed, hitced, 6-axle death wagon weighing 80 grand going 90 in live traffic... on the surface streets. |
Yeah, no, thank you. The fastest I have ever gone in a big rig was 87 mph, and that was on US95 coming south out of Gold Field, NV (long, smooth downslope that runs straight as an arrow all the way to the horizon). Put it in Georgia Overdrive and just let it roll.
Rigs feel funny at 87... |
Never driven a big rig. BUT my fastest i can remember going was 144mph, coming down highway I5, just before it became highway 99, south of bakersfield, going down some of those mountain roads.. AND THAT WAS in Neutral (was driving a 79 chrysler newport, a BOAT of a vehicle).
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Darklighter79
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
Many groups i've gamed in, know of that "The dodge is effective vs all attacks of that TYPE" part of dodging That's why many players opt for multiple weapons, so some shoot the enemy with blasters, some with flamers, some toss grenades and some use other weapons.. THAT WAY the dodges (or LS parries) are not as effective against some as they are vs others..
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This is somehow unclear. How this "type" should be understood:
1) Ranged
2) Melee
3) Unarmed
or
Ranged Archaic
Ranged Blaster
Ranged throw weapons
?
It's still confusing though. Why someone blocking attacks with LS should worry whether hit by stick, fist or claw?
To this day I have always used the rule: one dodge roll against all ranged attacks for that round as this roll replaces range difficulty.
Why they put this info on some distant pages not in the core skill description?
PS. During yesterday's re-read of REUP I have found additional info regarding reaction skills that should clarify certain issues:
Page 90 (!)
Melee parry. If someone attacks your character (either
with a brawling attack or when wielding a melee weapon)
and your character has a melee weapon (knife, vibro-ax...
even a chair or a mug will do in an emergency!), you use
melee parry to get out of the way or block the attack.
Brawling parry. If someone attacks your character
(either with a brawling attack or when wielding a melee
weapon) and your character’s unarmed, you use brawling
parry to get out of the way or block the attack.
Lightsaber. If someone attacks your character (either
with a brawling attack or when wielding a melee weapon)
and your character is wielding a lightsaber, you use the
lightsaber skill (or Dexterity attribute) to get out of the
way or block the attack.
Only Brawling Parry has extended info about getting out of the way in the core skill description..
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | Let's stick with autos for this next one. |
The problem I have here is two-fold:1) Per the RAW, All-Out covers the entire upper half of a vehicle's potential movement speed. What you're saying makes sense, but I operate vehicles in the upper 50% of their maximum speed on a regular basis, and am still able to split my attention and perform other tasks (I try not to, it's not safe, but it is possible). So, if the vehicle were operating all the way up at 4x its base Move, then sure, I could see why it might not be able to maneuver. But since All-Out covers the entire range of speed between 2x Base Move and 4x Base Move, there is leeway to work with.
2). We're playing in a cinematic universe, not a realistic one. As I have said elsewhere in this topic, I prefer a system where characters can, under certain heroic circumstances, perform seemingly impossible tasks and still come out the other side alive. I'd much rather have a system where a particular act is made effectively impossible due to penalties and/or high Difficulty levels, but that if a character chooses to spend a Force Point, there is a chance of pulling it off. That's dramatic and exciting, something that the players will reminisce about later. It makes for fun storytelling. |
That's a good point about the upper 50%. I hadn't thought of it like that. So let me amend my idea: when operating in the upper 10% of a vehicle's capability, other actions should probably be disallowed unless the pilot slows down. |
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