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Impossible or just Extremely Difficult?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
I see it as helping the gunner to target (which is what the FC bonus represents) not doing anything automatically. So no, I don’t see the gun or turret nullifying the effect of the pilot’s maneuvers.


Agreed.

I think that "helping to target" could include such electronic measures as target monitoring and visual tracking aids (like what we see in the FC systems in ANH: more or less Atari graphics that give the gunner a sense of how "on target" he is as he tries to acquire the bogey.

Embarassed I did not mean to imply that the FC system would physically manipulate the guns and "follow" targets around, but rather, would give the gunner a battlefield picture that he could use to "chase" targets that approach or attempt to leave his field of fire/field of view (basically, like what we see on screen). Though I'm not opposed to the notion of some degree of gyroscopic compensation, either (I don't see it as too far fetched to fit into SWU tech).

One way to interpret FC could be that a FC of 3D represents what the system can and cannot do. For example, suppose the system had 4D worth of electronics that aided in target identification and tracking; but it's limited range of motion imposed a -1D penalty on the gunner, for a total of 3D.

That is essentially what I was getting at: the movements of the ship (sudden or otherwise) are taken into account by the FC bonus already because FC is assumed to be equipped on the ship for combat in the first place.

In the end, one of the things that I find appealing about Star Wars tech is the clunkiness of it. It is at once crude and sophisticated--even a lightsaber can be made out of junky looking parts, though it's concept defies anything conceivable in real life. And in that regard, I relate to your stance on what WWII-style combat should and should not include.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Agreed.
Yay!

I second your love of the Atari-like graphics for Star Wars fire control.

I have a couple of new players who aren't huge Star Wars geeks and who sometimes have a tough time with the notion that some Star Wars tech (comlinks vs. cell phones, or lack of a real Galaxy-Net) is inferior to what we currently have. I also find that they tend to want to find things, shops, and people by looking things up on a computer network or phone books, whereas the investigation technique we usually see in movies, TV, etc. is more akin to a pulp detective story. You don't consult a computer resource you go talk to someone (usually an alien) in person and ask them questions.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was re-watching TFA today, and a scene got me thinking about the discussion here about a good pilot setting up their gunner for a shot.

https://youtu.be/ry4GLApDBHg?t=83

Poe is a great pilot, if not the best in the resistance, than one of the best. He easily maneuvers around and sets Finn up dead center to take out a turret.

Rey during her flight from the TIE fighters has never really flown in combat, and it shows. She's juking all over the place trying to lose them and avoid being shot. I have no doubt in my mind that if it had been Poe at the controls, it would have been much easier for the gunners to acquire their targets.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
Was re-watching TFA today, and a scene got me thinking about the discussion here about a good pilot setting up their gunner for a shot.

https://youtu.be/ry4GLApDBHg?t=83

Poe is a great pilot, if not the best in the resistance, than one of the best. He easily maneuvers around and sets Finn up dead center to take out a turret.

Rey during her flight from the TIE fighters has never really flown in combat, and it shows. She's juking all over the place trying to lose them and avoid being shot. I have no doubt in my mind that if it had been Poe at the controls, it would have been much easier for the gunners to acquire their targets.


I agree with you 100%. Combat is about winning, not merely surviving. A starship crew that knows how to fight (higher skills, and thus, higher piloting/dodge rolls) should always be better off for rolling high.

If you want to know more, check out the concept of the OODA loop.

In this scene, we see Poe evading multiple attacks while also setting up Finn for shots in two separate instances (the turrets first, and the ventral cannons second). What is noteworthy is that Finn has to rely on his base mechanical skill to fire the starship's weapons. Any penalties he would get would put him well below the enemy pilot's reaction skill (piloting skill + maneuverability). If Poe is rolling heroic on his rolls (because he's the best pilot in the film... possibly in the trilogy) then the penalty assessed to Finn per some of the house rules given here would eclipse his skill as a gunner.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
In this scene, we see Poe evading multiple attacks while also setting up Finn for shots in two separate instances (the turrets first, and the ventral cannons second). What is noteworthy is that Finn has to rely on his base mechanical skill to fire the starship's weapons. Any penalties he would get would put him well below the enemy pilot's reaction skill (piloting skill + maneuverability). If Poe is rolling heroic on his rolls (because he's the best pilot in the film... possibly in the trilogy) then the penalty assessed to Finn per some of the house rules given here would eclipse his skill as a gunner.



Can this not be seen as lowering maybe even totally negating the difficulty.
If we look to TFA and rey in the falcon, the gun was broken, this would according to the rules give a hefty penalty, however due to rey's piloting she manuvered the falcon in such a way that it gave finn an unhindered line of sight.
To me this negated the panalty.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree.

There seems to be two schools of thought on what a high skill roll represents:

1) A high roll represents a result in a high order of magnitude

2) A high roll represents a high level of success under the circumstances.

If we look at certain skills, we can get an idea of how a high roll may represent something more subtle, rather than more spectacular. Sneak, for example, represents the ability to not disturb the environment or draw attention. The best sneaker in the galaxy would have no reputation whatsoever, since noone would even know he existed.

Likewise, a pilot navigating an asteroid field would need to be able to make exceptionally difficult rolls that require both very large and very small (thread-the-needle) maneuvers.

In my book, a "high" dodge roll doesn't (necessarily) represent a sudden, jarring maneuver that flies way wide of the attack. It represents a far more abstract concept: a high margin of success indicates optimum maneuvering under the circumstances.

Now, we know that a high dodge roll is required to avoid a high attack roll. In THIS case, I can see how a "high" dodge roll would/could/should represent a sudden/surprising jolt to a gunner: the enemy gunner is so skilled that the pilot must exert all of his effort just to avoid getting hit, even if it means his gunner is distempered by the maneuver. This would be an example of a high dodge roll that succeeds by a narrow margin of success (ultimately, though, the only relevant factor is the margin of success).
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TO me sucess is not a mere pass or fail.

to use the pilot and the asteroid field.
To me this can be done on serveral roll related ways.
Any success is that but some are "barely" and others are "made easy"

So to me A pilot travesing a asteriod field would roll, and if he rolled high enough, I could give the bonus as letting him have less subsequent rolls to pass the field.

On a lower roll I would maybe have the pilot need another adjustment, or otherwise have them do relevant checks.

So to me a high roll is a better result.


You return fire from yur rifle just as you see the flash of the enemy scope.
A high/heroic roll here made you react and aim and fire and hit as a reflex, bit becuse of luck and becuse of a skill high enough to have a dice pool allowing it.

On a lesser roll you notice the shot, ducks and take aim, again a good roll and you get a slight bonus to the aim

so to me a sucess is much more, even to the degree of negating subsequent checks.

I make a heroic astrogation roll on a failry easy check, I may not have found a faster route, but I have found a route with no interruptions so no need for adjustments and that
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RyanDarkstar
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
TO me success is not a mere pass or fail...
I make a heroic astrogation roll on a fairly easy check, I may not have found a faster route, but I have found a route with no interruptions so no need for adjustments and that.


I allow this in my game as well. In the middle of space combat, the gambler PC ran back to the engineering section to repair/jury-rig the damaged sublight thrusters. After exploding 4 times on the Wild Die, I ruled that not only did the PC fix the thrusters, he had modified them as well, adding a +1 to Space. Of course, this can be taken away at any time if the crew bomb out on another repair check (plus it's one more quirk to add to the rickety ship).
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanDarkstar wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
TO me success is not a mere pass or fail...
I make a heroic astrogation roll on a fairly easy check, I may not have found a faster route, but I have found a route with no interruptions so no need for adjustments and that.


I allow this in my game as well. In the middle of space combat, the gambler PC ran back to the engineering section to repair/jury-rig the damaged sublight thrusters. After exploding 4 times on the Wild Die, I ruled that not only did the PC fix the thrusters, he had modified them as well, adding a +1 to Space. Of course, this can be taken away at any time if the crew bomb out on another repair check (plus it's one more quirk to add to the rickety ship).



Not sure if I would have allowed a modification there and then even on 57 exploding dice, however I personally would have ruled it as something like the weapon system was not actually destroyed, the effect of the exploding wild dice is shared between the item and the skill used here.

The gambler fixes this, instantly getting a face palm moment, just flip that switch and boom we are good, suddenly the time this would take is N/A and the damaged system proved less damaged after all, it still works like before but will it last. maybe with this good roll the need for a repair down the line is less, the gambles sees the gun is usable, but needs to have some repairs done later, mailu to tighten things there and fasten things there, maybe the gun bay needs some more weldings and bolts etc, something is maybe possible to do after action and maybe even on the fly.
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