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Bargaining is binding
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Volar the Healer
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Binding!?

While I agree it should be, it should be presented as necessarily so, not because the dice say so.

You won't find anyone else around here who has a T-14 hyperdrive, either. I can promise you that!
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volar the Healer wrote:
Binding!?

While I agree it should be, it should be presented as necessarily so, not because the dice say so.

"You won't find anyone else around here who has a T-14 hyperdrive, either. I can promise you that!"

And then there's always that. A bind governed by GM hand-waived plot and not game mechanics. Although in Dredwulf's defense, his general rule seemed to be born out of the need to specifically address cases where it would be very unrealistic there wouldn't be other options, like for non-unique items in a very large city.

It's much easier to get away with there only being one source for the item the PCs need in a small city in a backwater planet. If there really shouldn't only be one way to get an item in a large city, it can come across as contrived if the GM overuses that. Dredwulf's mechanics do achieve the prevention of PCs bargaining with a multitude of sellers until they roll well enough to get a really good deal (Dredwulf wanted to put the emphasis on skill instead of luck).

As I've stated, there are other non-mechanical ways to address that issue. It's never been an issue in my game because there usually is a clock ticking so the PCs don't have time for an unending series bargain sessions. And when the PCs do have more time to find a good price on an item that would be available from multiple sellers, then it's more realistic that they would be able to shop around for the best price. But that isn't going to be very often, so the Bargain skill is still valuable in my game. Basically there is a rare combination of situations where this even could be an issue:

    The PCs are on a planet with a lot of potential sellers, and
    The item they are looking for is common enough to be available through multiple sellers, and
    The price of the item is negotiable, and
    There is no clock ticking.

And if this uncommon case of multiple bargaining attempts begins to become tedious (or I think the PCs are being overly greedy and passing up good deals), I can introduce a new circumstance, perhaps a new time-sensitive complication in the adventure to get things moving. I'm sure I've done that before, but no more than a few times since 1988.

For my game, there is certainly is no need to change RAW for the Bargain skill and remove player free will in final negotiated price acceptable by tacking the outcome of the transaction on to the Bargain result, but to each GM his own.
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Tinman
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've been someone flexible with price negotiation, depending on the nature of the campaign, and how it will add to that or not.

Simple transactions in games not focusing on trading and economics were usually handled with the rules as written, except in very unusual situations.

When it came to a couple tramp trader campaigns though, things got really elaborate, and involved a great deal of role playing. Stuff like relationships with merchants and purchasers, the actions of competing traders, local and planetary culture, fads and fashions, in game events affecting the necessity of certain goods, personal grudges, the reputations of different parties and various other things became factors. In that sort of scenario situations were too complex to be realistically settled with simple rolls much of the time. There'd be "mundane" cargo hauls and transactions on a regular basis, but the more speculative and interesting things taken aboard with the regular cargo were what made things interesting.

Of course, when a bit of smuggling would come into the picture things would naturally become even more complicated.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinman wrote:
We've been someone flexible with price negotiation, depending on the nature of the campaign, and how it will add to that or not.

Simple transactions in games not focusing on trading and economics were usually handled with the rules as written, except in very unusual situations.

When it came to a couple tramp trader campaigns though, things got really elaborate, and involved a great deal of role playing. Stuff like relationships with merchants and purchasers, the actions of competing traders, local and planetary culture, fads and fashions, in game events affecting the necessity of certain goods, personal grudges, the reputations of different parties and various other things became factors. In that sort of scenario situations were too complex to be realistically settled with simple rolls much of the time. There'd be "mundane" cargo hauls and transactions on a regular basis, but the more speculative and interesting things taken aboard with the regular cargo were what made things interesting.

Of course, when a bit of smuggling would come into the picture things would naturally become even more complicated.

Very well said, Tinman. I've also ran a couple tramp campaigns, and of course these tramp campaigns are the ones where the Bargain skill was used the most. Every single thing you mentioned came into play in them at some point. In my game all these various factors, other skills and a lot of roleplaying leads up the point for each use of the Bargain skill and thus determined the modifiers going into it, but the actual determination of the final negotiated price was handed with the Bargain skill, with the buyers remaining free to refuse the offer as in RAW. And of course the outcome of the transaction (accepted or rejected) was also a potential factor for future interactions. Sometimes it was more important for PCs to accept a not-so-great offer towards gaining a better relationship with the NPC for the future, especially in the black market where you just can't trust anyone.
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to alter my position on the binding part of bargaining after having put some thought into it.

My thought is that the price is binding for that particular buyer/seller. If the PCs want to try again, they will have to go elsewhere. Smart PCs would use the value skill first to see if it is a good deal or not, but that is not the issue.

Bottom line: want a better deal? Go somewhere else.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But then it still has the issue of if they keep getting bad rolls, they can just go elsewhere till they start getting Good ones..
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JironGhrad
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
But then it still has the issue of if they keep getting bad rolls, they can just go elsewhere till they start getting Good ones..


And you use streetwise or similar to determine an approximate number of sellers who may or may not have that item. One might also assume that while an item might be available in a number of places (eg. tires for a car) only certain merchants might be able to do something other than a standard price.

I use tires as an example since I had to buy a new set last fall, for the truck I bought used, early last year. I visited 5 retailers to get quotes, then visited the dealer where I usually do business and got him to beat the best quote and throw in Nitrofil. I ended up saving around $450 off retail, which for higher end truck tires is a pretty solid deal generally.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes dealers or other merchants like to offer a discout on the condition that the buyer finance the purchase. What they are betting on is that in the long run, they will male more money on the sale in interest than they lose on the discount.

I'm most GMs don't want to track interest and stuff, so that's not really something to use in a game, but the idea of disguising a price mark-up as a discount is something that might be useable.

For example, the seller's price might be inflated to begin with (and if someone buys with no questions asked, then all the better). If a buyer seems put off by the price, the seller can throw in additional items that still don't add up to the inflated price in value, but if those are advertised at inflated prices as well, then being "free" makes it seem like an even better deal.
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Volar the Healer
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another possibility is: it is not binding. The players can walk away from the deal anytime. But each bargain roll after that is -1 die (multiple use penalty) as word gets around they are "difficult customers"...just an idea. But, then the NPCs should also be able to walk away from the deal anytime...maybe once for each time the players choose to do so?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volar the Healer wrote:
Another possibility is: it is not binding. The players can walk away from the deal anytime. But each bargain roll after that is -1 die (multiple use penalty) as word gets around they are "difficult customers"...just an idea. But, then the NPCs should also be able to walk away from the deal anytime...maybe once for each time the players choose to do so?


Good point. And maybe if they have "walked away" more times than the # before the D in their bargaining skill, word has gotten around enough no one wants to do business with them AT THIS TIME...
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Volar's idea, but I'd do it as a -5 modifier to the player's roll.

"You know, if you'd come to me first... I definitely could have gotten you a great deal, but now... word has gotten around that you're not easy to work with."
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice situational bonus... Additionally, depending on how known they ARE to the supplier might also make a bonus (or penalty) to that roll.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this while searching for another one of Dredwulf's topics, and I've decided to do something like this in my solo plays. Since the only people involved me as player and GM, I want botched bargain rolls by character to have the option of potentially putting him in a bad spot financially. It is really easy for a character to make a boatload of cash with a good bargain roll, I want the opposite to be true as well.

I want there to be some desperation for the character. If I decide to go out and roll bargain because I want something, it means the character wants it badly enough to go and buy one regardless of how the roll turns out.

Any newcomers have any feelings on the system? I think it would work well for independent characters and freetraders, but not so well for standard rebels, unless they're an independently operating cell like the crew of the Ghost during the early episodes of Rebels.
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