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Two-weapon Fighting
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
The idea of dual-wielding polearms isn't necessarily laughable.

Not if you're a pho ph'eahian, cragmoloid, codru-ji, jillsarian, or besalisk.

Something to be said for that.

Quote:
Or, of course, if you're Fluffy.

Of course, to Fluffy, a pair of polearms is more like a pair of hatchets...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire, based on a conversion of the Modifier Guidelines chart (2R&E, pg. 77)...

    +1-5 (+1D) = Slight Advantage
    +6-10 (+2D) = Good Advantage
    +11-15 (+3D) = Decisive Advantage
    +16+ (+4D+) = Overpowering Advantage

Would you say that dual-wielded melee weapons in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing constitutes a "slight" advantage or a "good" one?
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty sure that Fluffy counts as 'Reach.'
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, perhaps this would be a good place for the Fluency Rule. Say a character attempting to dual-wield (or use a double-end weapon) has to roll their unmodified skill against the modified Difficulty 10 consecutive times to demonstrate proficiency with the techniques of dual-wielding, at which point they simply add the bonus to their skill and roll like normal, with Mishaps only occurring on Critical Failures?

EDIT: Also, possibly, gaining "Fluency" could be a requirement for specializing in any of these techniques.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
If you're using a single-handed weapon it really shouldn't make a difference. If you're using a polearm, it would make a lot of difference. But the idea of dual wielding polearms is laughable anyway.

Now that I think about it, weren't lightsaber duels in the films generally fought with two hands on the saber?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
cheshire wrote:
If you're using a single-handed weapon it really shouldn't make a difference. If you're using a polearm, it would make a lot of difference. But the idea of dual wielding polearms is laughable anyway.

Now that I think about it, weren't lightsaber duels in the films generally fought with two hands on the saber?

Yes. I would say two-handed is norm for Lightsaber and one-handed would be at a disadvantage. I remember Vader using one-hand against Luke at first on Cloud City, but Vader way outclassed Luke. Anakin very briefly wielded a lightsaber in each hand against Dooku on Geonosis, but Dooku quickly took out one of them.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I would say two-handed is norm for Lightsaber and one-handed would be at a disadvantage. I remember Vader using one-hand against Luke at first on Cloud City, but Vader way outclassed Luke.

That was my thought, as well. While Jedi did take their hand off the saber, it never stayed off very long.

Quote:
Anakin very briefly wielded a lightsaber in each hand against Dooku on Geonosis, but Dooku quickly took out one of them.

But was that an indicator of how poor the technique was or how good Dooku was?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
That was my thought, as well. While Jedi did take their hand off the saber, it never stayed off very long.

Whill wrote:
Anakin very briefly wielded a lightsaber in each hand against Dooku on Geonosis, but Dooku quickly took out one of them.

But was that an indicator of how poor the technique was or how good Dooku was?

It didn't really make sense. Obi-Wan was wounded and prone, and he threw Anakin his lightsaber as if it would help him. But if using lightsabers two-handed is the norm, then that was two one-handed lightsabers, and one of them offhand unless Anakin was ambidextrous. It seems like it would hurt more than help.

And it wasn't indicative of much because it was actually part of a much longer sequence that got cut. For strict continuity's sake it couldn't have been completely cut because the one that Dooku took out was the one Anakin had been using, so without showing it at all, suddenly Anakin would be using Obi-Wan's lightsaber without explanation. AotC was the longest running SW film at the time so Lucas chopped the final battle all to hell. In the end, these were the lengths of Dooku's three duels: Obi-Wan's was 35 seconds, Anakin's was 50 seconds, and Yoda's was 39 seconds.

Lucas probably just had the two-sabers sequence in the first place just to do something different and cool-looking. But since we try to divine in-universe meanings for these things, the only thing I can think of was it was just a tactic to try something Dooku wouldn't anticipate to throw him off balance. A desperate measure that didn't end up gaining any advantage. If it was a regular advantage to wield two sabers, than most the Jedi would be doing it. Instead, we see them almost always using a single saber as a two-handed weapon. I'm definitely not an expert on Star Wars animated series, but I think Ashoka's normal attack mode is two-sabers (even more stupidly pointing backwards).
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Last edited by Whill on Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dewitt667
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dooku is just that much better. He is suppose to be a master in the dueling saber form.

I’m a little rusty on the rule but would duel wielding work better as an specialized advanced skill. The character would need to be using a specific weapons and not just picking up any old weapon that is in hands reach, like Rex and his DC-17 blasters. If the pc wants to duel wield blaster, they must specialize in a spacific model of blaster or take a penalty if using a of another model. Lightsabers are almost always custom so the pc would have to had made them. Other melee weapons would have to be the same as blasters.

To wield say a blaster and lightsaber at the same time, the pc would have to buy dual wielding in both lightsaber and that model of blaster.

Most player want thier pc to mimic thier favorite movie characters from the start, but they don’t thing of how much in universe time those character have spent to hone those cool skill.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dewitt667 wrote:
I’m a little rusty on the rule but would dual wielding work better as an specialized advanced skill. The character would need to be using a specific weapons and not just picking up any old weapon that is in hands reach, like Rex and his DC-17 blasters. If the pc wants to duel wield blaster, they must specialize in a specific model of blaster or take a penalty if using a of another model. Lightsabers are almost always custom so the pc would have to had made them. Other melee weapons would have to be the same as blasters.

I've looked at it, and it ends up being more like a Specialization than an Advanced Skill. Technically, Melee Combat is defined broadly enough that it covers all Melee Weapon use, including paired weapons. And frankly, it's not really worth specializing in a paired weapon because all it takes is losing one and you're suddenly unable to use the dice you've put into that specialization.

In my experience, specializations are the most useful when defined as broadly as possible.


Quote:
Most player want their pc to mimic their favorite movie characters from the start, but they don’t thing of how much in universe time those character have spent to hone those cool skill.

Again, based on how the Dexterity skills are written, it's far better to just add Difficulty modifiers to the Base Difficulty of a single weapon than go mucking around with requiring minimum skill dice to do something.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
cheshire wrote:
If you're using a single-handed weapon it really shouldn't make a difference. If you're using a polearm, it would make a lot of difference. But the idea of dual wielding polearms is laughable anyway.

Now that I think about it, weren't lightsaber duels in the films generally fought with two hands on the saber?

Yes. I would say two-handed is norm for Lightsaber and one-handed would be at a disadvantage. I remember Vader using one-hand against Luke at first on Cloud City, but Vader way outclassed Luke. Anakin very briefly wielded a lightsaber in each hand against Dooku on Geonosis, but Dooku quickly took out one of them.


Well lets see.
TPM
Obi/Qui vs Maul, maul generally had both hands on his saber, same with obi and qui. A couple of times they were one handed
In the first encounter of maul vs qui, they both were two hands on.
Same with all 3 instances of Obi/Qui going through droids.

ATOC
Obi @ ani vs Dooku, Dooku fought with only on hand on his dualing saber, but both Ani and Obi fought with 2 on theirs.
Dooku vs yoda - Yoda did it iirc two hands, i don't remember if the big D did or not.
Arena fight. Most of the time i remember all the jedi with both hands on theirs, unless they were TKing a droid..

ROTS
The only battle i remember that i saw only one hand on a saber, was Obi vs Grevious. He had the one hand on the saber, the other pointing to G, before he actually engaged, but went two hands on it..


So yea, it does seem for the most part, when jedi fight, they have both hands on their saber..
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
cheshire, based on a conversion of the Modifier Guidelines chart (2R&E, pg. 77)...

    +1-5 (+1D) = Slight Advantage
    +6-10 (+2D) = Good Advantage
    +11-15 (+3D) = Decisive Advantage
    +16+ (+4D+) = Overpowering Advantage

Would you say that dual-wielded melee weapons in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing constitutes a "slight" advantage or a "good" one?


I've tried to work with similar mechanics before, and what it really winds up doing is adding a die bonus to someone who is demonstrating skill proficiency. Skill proficiency is usually manifested in a high die code. You're essentially giving a die bonus to someone with an already high die code.

I keep thinking there should be another way. But that may be one of the limits with using a cinematic system.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about applying the dice value as a penalty to the opponent? The dual wielding character’s Difficulty goes up, but their skill is unchanged, and the attacker suffers a -1D penalty to their skill?
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not opposed to adding a bonus. Just if you want someone to gain a proficiency, it might be better to have them purchase a special ability. For example, if they start dual wielding right off the bat, they have a die penalty for getting extra actions in initiative order. Then after a month of practice and 10 CPs that penalty goes away. After an additional two months of practice and 15 CPs they get bonuses to attack and defense while using two weapons.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
I'm not opposed to adding a bonus. Just if you want someone to gain a proficiency, it might be better to have them purchase a special ability. For example, if they start dual wielding right off the bat, they have a die penalty for getting extra actions in initiative order. Then after a month of practice and 10 CPs that penalty goes away. After an additional two months of practice and 15 CPs they get bonuses to attack and defense while using two weapons.

I did something like this with my Dueling Sabers project, where Jar'Kai (wielding two sabers at once) was a Technique that could be applied to the Seven Forms. You had to pay 10 CP to learn the basics (i.e. combining Dual-Wielding into Lightsaber/Form I), and then had to pay another 5 CP per Form to add those techniques to Forms II through VII. So to be able to dual wield, Ahsoka would have to pay 10 CP to learn the basics of Dual-Wielding, then another 5 CP to apply those principles to Form IV.

I tried to structure it so that it offered a modest advantage, but not so powerful that it would be overwhelming.

Using Jar'Kai as an example, combined with what you said above, I'm thinking a three step system:

    1) Untrained: A Character may attempt to dual-wield Lightsabers untrained, but suffers a +5/10 Difficulty Penalty (depending on weapon length), while gaining the ability to perform two actions during his Combat Turn (applying standard MAPs).

    2) Adept: Character still incurs the Difficulty Penalty, but adds +1D to Lightsaber (either as an anti-MAP when taking two actions or as a flat bonus when using a Dueling Blades System)

    3) Master: As Adept, but bonus increases to +2D.

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