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Two-weapon Fighting
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

In my game, characters must choose a handedness (right or left) and record that on the character sheet. The other is the offhand. Multi-armed species still choose one hand as the dominant hand and the rest are all offhands. If using an offhand for anything, you suffer a -1D penalty. Ambidexterity is an advantage that must be purchased at char gen, but the only benefit that provides is offsetting the offhand penalty. (Multi-arm species just get one additional handedness, and the other hands are still off hands.) Nothing too crunchy. It's simple and fair.

This was always how I had run Star Wars - and the thing is, I was certain I had actually read something to that effect somewhere in the original two 1E books - however every time in more recent years (2001+) I have looked for that reference I have been unable to find it. It may be I had simply adapted it because many other games I ran had a handedness with an optional Ambidextrous perk or Paired Weapons skill.

I could weigh on on some of the mechanics I have used over the years and experimented with, and my thoughts on current preffered method, but it looks like this thread has covered a lot. I am uncertain if anyone would want to hear what is some rehashing and some new. I think I have seen this topic repeatedly over the years, both here, and at the old WEG forums.

Simplest Version I favor (let's call it the cinematic version):

I would count anyone with 2 weapons in melee as having a distinct advantage (+4D) but still apply Maps and off-handedness. Alternately, with 2 Melee weapons, I would allow both a full parray and attacks to be made in the same round - as this is the main focus of real world two weapon fighting (using one for mainly defense and the other for attack) - MAPs still apply as does off-handedness.

Optional Adendum
Paired Weapons (A) Skill
Allows offsetting the penalties of fighting with a weapon in each hand - and with prolonged training may even surpass a person skill with a single weapon. Req: any 2 combat skills of appropriate types at 6D or better (Melee, blaster, brawling, parry, martial arts, etc...)

I have much more complicated rules I tried over the years but was never happy with. I found they bogged down the game - so in later years I strived toward making any rules fit within known conventions as much as possible for ease of remembrance and application. Where possible I scoured existing D6 source material (not just SW) for existing rulings.
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Last edited by KageRyu on Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:

Optional Adendum
Paired Weapons (A) Skill
Allows offsetting the penalties of fighting with a weapon in each hand - and with prolonged training may even surpass a person skill with a single weapon. Req: any 2 combat skills of appropriate types at 6D or better (Melee, blaster, brawling, parry, martial arts, etc...)

I have much more complicated rules I tried over the years but was never happy with. I found they bogged down the game - so in later years I strived toward making any rules fit within known conventions as much as possible for ease of remembrance and application. Where possible I scoured existing D6 source material (not just SW) for existing rulings.


It's a great thought. I actually tried it. The result of the playtest is that it wound up being too expensive CP wise to make it practical. Sure, you could pump the CPs in to bringing the skill to a functional level, but with it being an advanced skill at 2x the CP cost, you could put the same amount of CPs and training time in the base skill and get more benefit.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey cheshire, don't forget about me...
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:


It's a great thought. I actually tried it. The result of the playtest is that it wound up being too expensive CP wise to make it practical. Sure, you could pump the CPs in to bringing the skill to a functional level, but with it being an advanced skill at 2x the CP cost, you could put the same amount of CPs and training time in the base skill and get more benefit.

Depending on the level of the base skill - yes, but given that advanced skills were added to a base skill the main purpose was to offset the penalty of dual wielding and handedness. Though in the rules there were also cases where the advanced skill was used on it's own - which wasn't what I had in mind, but I could expand the skills definition to make it more worth those CP in that case too...

Paired Weapons (A) Skill
Allows offsetting the penalties of fighting with a weapon in each hand - and with prolonged training may even surpass a person skill with a single weapon. Req: any 2 combat skills of appropriate types at 6D or better (Melee, blaster, brawling, parry, martial arts, etc...), When wielding Two weapons, substituting this skill for the weapon skill ignores penalties for wield the second weapon offhand, and allows the character to use each weapon once for each declared action (i.e. declaring 2 actions with Paired Blasters allows 4 shots with only -1D MAP).
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Ashikaider
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would races possessing 4 or more arms and this skill have a MAP reduction?
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashikaider wrote:
Would races possessing 4 or more arms and this skill have a MAP reduction?

I would have to put a lot of thought into it - and it would depend greatly on how the 4 arms were handled in terms of character building. I'll mull it over a bit. While I can see where they should have an advantage, I wouldn't want them to become overwhelming either.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the Pho-Phinniean, is wrote in one of the alien books, as being able to take 2 actions (i think they left out the phrase manual actions) before starting to take MAPs.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Well, the Pho-Phinniean, is wrote in one of the alien books, as being able to take 2 actions (i think they left out the phrase manual actions) before starting to take MAPs.

By chance do you know which book? I'd like to read it over while thinking on it.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Well, the Pho-Phinniean, is wrote in one of the alien books, as being able to take 2 actions (i think they left out the phrase manual actions) before starting to take MAPs.

By chance do you know which book? I'd like to read it over while thinking on it.

That's the Han Solo & The Corporate Sector Handbook, page 136.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would adopting nuclearwookiee's SAP concept apply to paired weapons?

Perhaps a trained special ability that allows a dual-wielding adept to ignore some or all of MAP/SAPs incurred when dual wielding?
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Hey cheshire, don't forget about me...


Haven't forgotten about ya buddy. Just putting in a lot of late hours and haven't had the time to reply. I thought this should get more than half-hearted attention. You're getting at least five-eighths of my heart.

CRMcNeill wrote:
cheshire wrote:
I'm not opposed to adding a bonus. Just if you want someone to gain a proficiency, it might be better to have them purchase a special ability. For example, if they start dual wielding right off the bat, they have a die penalty for getting extra actions in initiative order. Then after a month of practice and 10 CPs that penalty goes away. After an additional two months of practice and 15 CPs they get bonuses to attack and defense while using two weapons.

I did something like this with my Dueling Sabers project, where Jar'Kai (wielding two sabers at once) was a Technique that could be applied to the Seven Forms. You had to pay 10 CP to learn the basics (i.e. combining Dual-Wielding into Lightsaber/Form I), and then had to pay another 5 CP per Form to add those techniques to Forms II through VII. So to be able to dual wield, Ahsoka would have to pay 10 CP to learn the basics of Dual-Wielding, then another 5 CP to apply those principles to Form IV.

I tried to structure it so that it offered a modest advantage, but not so powerful that it would be overwhelming.

Using Jar'Kai as an example, combined with what you said above, I'm thinking a three step system:

    1) Untrained: A Character may attempt to dual-wield Lightsabers untrained, but suffers a +5/10 Difficulty Penalty (depending on weapon length), while gaining the ability to perform two actions during his Combat Turn (applying standard MAPs).

    2) Adept: Character still incurs the Difficulty Penalty, but adds +1D to Lightsaber (either as an anti-MAP when taking two actions or as a flat bonus when using a Dueling Blades System)

    3) Master: As Adept, but bonus increases to +2D.


It sounds like a fair representation. It'd make more sense in a crunch-oriented group. But I think there's room for that. I'd say playtest it and tell me how it works. I'd really be interested to see if this works out. I suspect it would.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1) Untrained: A Character may attempt to dual-wield Lightsabers untrained, but suffers a +5/10 Difficulty Penalty (depending on weapon length), while gaining the ability to perform two actions during his Combat Turn (applying standard MAPs).


Hmm... another thought occurred to me. Suppose you are using the weapon defensively. I.E., melee parry. Is the +5 difficulty applied as a bonus to the opponent's attack? I.E., if the attack roll is a 15, the defender has to roll a 20 to avoid being hit?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Suppose you are using the weapon defensively. I.E., melee parry. Is the +5 difficulty applied as a bonus to the opponent's attack? I.E., if the attack roll is a 15, the defender has to roll a 20 to avoid being hit?
Would that be consistent with your experience? Or does having a second weapon actually make it easier on the defense?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Just putting in a lot of late hours and haven't had the time to reply. I thought this should get more than half-hearted attention. You're getting at least five-eighths of my heart.

Much appreciated.

Quote:
It sounds like a fair representation. It'd make more sense in a crunch-oriented group. But I think there's room for that. I'd say playtest it and tell me how it works. I'd really be interested to see if this works out. I suspect it would.

I think it needs a more uniform system, though. Under the RAW, Lightsaber combat is different from Melee Combat by dint of only having one skill. The thing is, also per the RAW, a Jedi could achieve the same effect by tossing the Lightsaber skill completely and specializing in Melee Combat: Lightsaber and Melee Parry: Lightsaber at the same CP cost.

But adding two skills then throws off the Dueling Blades system because it only uses one skill. I think my Offense / Defense variation offers some advantages here, in that a character could simply roll whichever skill applies to the chart he's using.

Ultimately, though, I'd need to decide whether to write a house rule that matches with the RAW, or a house rule that fits with all the other house rules I've applied to melee combat.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The alternate possibility is to throw out the Parry skills entirely and just fold it into the Combat skills, so you use Melee Combat and Brawling Combat as both attack and defense.
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