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HWK-290 Scout/Courier
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Pel
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: HWK-290 Scout/Courier Reply with quote

Maybe it can carry 150 tons, but only if the cargo is something really dense, like tungsten or whatever supermassive elements exist in Star Wars. Extremely unlikely, but it's not the most random thought I've had today.

CRMcNeill wrote:
In this episode of "CRMcNeill Fixes The EU"


I love that. Please keep up the great work!
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Inquisitor1138
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:54 am    Post subject: Will the Real HWK-290 Please Stand Up? Reply with quote

Having reviewed the discussion in this thread and others, as well as arguments on Wookiepedia, i have finally decided how 'I' am reconciling the size issue:
Three Different Ships.
In Dark Forces, the Moldy Crow is a HWK-290 HWK-290 light freighter, with a Cargo Capacity in the 300-450 kg range.
Between Dark Forces & Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II, the Moldy Crow is lost or destroyed, and Jan Ors' friends help her to replace it with a similar model from the line. Either an older HWK-180 or newer HWK-310/320/360/x, Length 19 meters, Cargo Capacity in the 200-250 kg range. These are classed as Scout/Couriers instead of light freighters.
Jan names her 'new' ship the Moldy Crow for sentimental reasons.
Then there's the Recon Couriers at 16.5 meters, which are long-range starfighters more than anything else. Cargo Capacity in the 150 kg range.

I am gonna collate the 29 meter stat blocks for the HWK-290 light freighters, and use CRMcNeill's HWK-290 Scout/Courier as the basis for my Scout/Courier models then the leaner Recon Couriers.
Thank you CRMcNeill for your stats & reasoning. Thanks to all of you for the insightful discussion!
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right off the bat, I see some problems. No light freighter worthy of the name would have a cargo capacity of 300-450kg.

Plus, while it can be difficult to judge size and scale from video games (especially older ones), the ship shown here, from Dark Forces 1, is not 29 meters. In fact, there is no evidence to suggest that the 29 meter version of the Moldy Crow ever existed officially.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Inquisitor1138
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Right off the bat, I see some problems. No light freighter worthy of the name would have a cargo capacity of 300-450kg.

Plus, while it can be difficult to judge size and scale from video games (especially older ones), the ship shown here, from Dark Forces 1, is not 29 meters. In fact, there is no evidence to suggest that the 29 meter version of the Moldy Crow ever existed officially.


You're not wrong, my friend.
I hope to find cutscenes of Dark Forces, or better yet, get a new computer & set up part of the hard drive as an emulator of an older pc so i can play DF1 again; or find my copy for PS1 & play it on that. Bottom line is, there are multiple sources supporting the 29 meter stated intended length, and trying to verify some of them is a pain, to be sure.
Yes, the majority of screen evidence supports the smaller size. I have seen claims that some scenes in DFI do indeed show a larger vessel, and i wish to see for myself.
Hence, to me, i am accepting that there were two Moldy Crows, as my way of reconciling the contradictory evidence. Just as the Imperial Navy lacks the organization of the Imperial Army and must content itself with the control of all known space, so must we, the consumers/fans must content ourselves with determining what has value to us and what we do with it.

Regarding my stats for a 29 meter ship, and using the cutaway shown here, Cross-Section Image, what would you say is the most reasonable Cargo Capacity for it?
And for the 19 meter ships?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I addressed this point earlier in this thread, which is, in turn, taken from the Wookieepedia article on the Moldy Crow.

To summarize, very early on in the development of Dark Forces, a few teaser images were released showing Kyle's ship (as yet unnamed) which was either explicitly named as a Baudo-Class, or bore a very striking resemblance to it. The 29-meter length and 150 metric cargo ton capacity were tied to that ship (which is still pretty silly, because the actual Baudo is 32 meters, and has even less internal volume than the YT-1300, which only has 100 metric tons, but I digress). However, in the course of game development, the original Baudo-based ship was dropped in favor of the smaller HWK-290 that became the Moldy Crow. However, the stat numbers, whether they were official or fan extrapolations based on the Baudo design, persisted in spite of the fact that it was now a completely different ship.

So, the numbers you have for a light freighter were tied to a completely different ship that never actually existed in the game, but the numbers have persisted because fans accept "official" numbers without question, when it would behoove them to look deeper as to where those numbers came from.
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Inquisitor1138
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I addressed this point earlier in this thread, which is, in turn, taken from the Wookieepedia article on the Moldy Crow.

To summarize, --snip--

Wow. That was a long-winded way to not answer a question.
Rehashing your opinions on other peoples' actions and/or assumptions, or those few tidbits that where made public knowledge, does not answer either of the questions i have asked, and serves little purpose here.
Arguing against the 150 metric ton fallacy, when i made clear i do not support it, is just repeating yourself.

What i had asked was:
Inquisitor1138 wrote:
Regarding my stats for a 29 meter ship, and using the cutaway shown here, Cross-Section Image, what would you say is the most reasonable Cargo Capacity for it?
And for the 19 meter ships?

Since you had gone with 1 mt for your 19 meter scout, you had informed reasoning behind it. That would be worth discussing.
Looking at the Lambda shuttle that has a capacity of 80 mt, if there are no Passengers. I was thinking half off that is 40 mt, then half again is 20 mt.
Then i looked at the Rogue Shadow, with its capacity of 15 mt.
The HWK-290 has no cloaking device or other stealth tech, and a common hyperdrive, not an advanced prototype.
So now i am thinking ≈20 mt for the 29 meter ships, 1-3 mt for the ≈19 meter ones. 300 kg or less for the ≈16.5m starfighters.

I want to hear what any of you think.


Last edited by Inquisitor1138 on Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inquisitor1138 wrote:
I want to hear what any of you think.

I think I started this topic to specifically address the fact that the stated numbers for the HWK-290 didn't match what we see in-game, and to post what I considered to be a more accurate version. Since I'm not a fan of excusing the laziness / carelessness of artists and/or fluff writers making a ship appear to be different sizes by saying that "there's two versions that look exactly alike, but one's way bigger than the other," I have no interest whatsoever in making a 29-meter version of a ship that is manifestly not 29 meters long. However, you seem invested in the idea, so I will bow out and leave you to it.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough.
When i have the stats done for the HWK-series ships i'm making i will post them in a separate thread.
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