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Blind Hyperspace Jumps
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

    This is an original work by Tim "Nealos" Salam, except where noted.



Now that's a name I've not heard in a long time... a long time.

I went to see if I had that guide. It looks like I don't. Would you mind posting a link?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted a link to the Internet Archive version a while back, and shootingwomprats compiled it into a pdf doc over on G+. Which would you prefer?
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PDF would be grand!
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I posted a link to the Internet Archive version a while back, and shootingwomprats compiled it into a pdf doc over on G+. Which would you prefer?

Yes, linkage please. I thought I had this document and put it on the RP Library, but I can't find it.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
Preventing enem ships from jumping, not influencing their actual jump ( though they may force a destination change as part of any safety features that needs to be bypassed)
If a ship is held back, it can still end up at the right place, if it escapes the gravity well it can still end up in the right place, there is no reprogramming of the enemy ship's nav coordinates from the interdictor.

What is your evidentiary basis for this? It's pretty clear from the WEG rules (as of the Interdictor stats in Wanted by Cracken) that a gravity field could throw a ship off course, assuming it wasn't quite strong enough to stop the jump entirely. If this is how you want your SWU to work, that's fine, but lets be clear about it.


I may be wrong, but to me it seems this is how it works in rebels, they had issues initiating the jump due to the strong gravity.
We saw the interdictor rip ships out of hyperspace, but we never saw the interdictor force a jumping ship to change trajectory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s3sgDhDcIA

Here we see the corvette being pulled out of hyperspace


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npciobhu8hg


Here sabine describes the properties of the interdictor

nowhere does it indicate it intefere with the navigation, it "only" hinders hyper jumping and is capable of pulling a ship out
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
I posted a link to the Internet Archive version a while back, and shootingwomprats compiled it into a pdf doc over on G+. Which would you prefer?

Yes, linkage please. I thought I had this document and put it on the RP Library, but I can't find it.


Got it! Since CRM said it was on the G+ Community, I did a search.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a8BGH9rhWpnsppVSfbD8YcjFT-NlNKW3-eG3T1L2DrQ/edit

And I found the original thread when it was first posted in the SWRPGNetwork (man that place was great in its prime).

http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/archive/index.php/t-16800.html

Apparently Eric Trautmann was a contributor in the tactics section!
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a8BGH9rhWpnsppVSfbD8YcjFT-NlNKW3-eG3T1L2DrQ/edit
...
Apparently Eric Trautmann was a contributor in the tactics section!

Cool. I'm not very good at navigating G+, so thanks. I figured out that I had only bookmarked the web version and forgotten about that. I saved the doc you shared as a PDF and uploaded that to the Rancor Pit Library. Here is the direct link for anyone else who wants it in PDF form:

Blockade Runner's Guide
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
nowhere does it indicate it intefere with the navigation, it "only" hinders hyper jumping and is capable of pulling a ship out

The Rebels' version of the Interdictor is overly simplistic; if you took Sabine's description at face value, the gravity well itself is "large enough to pull the ship out of hyperspace." That was never the point of the Interdictor. Rather, it was to project a gravity well of sufficient strength to trick a ship's automated safety cut-out into dropping out of hyperspace, then keeping it there by making it think it was too close to a gravity well to safely jump.

It's a mistake to just throw out the RAW on a whim just because something as, well, shallow as Rebels misinterprets it. The videos don't really prove your point, anyway.

Besides, I rather like the idea that an Interdictor / gravity well does more than just trick a ship. Having the gravity well have a physical effect on the accuracy of the jump adds a nice layer to the reason why a ship would need to be far enough away from a planet to jump, in addition to just needing to be far enough away to keep the hyperdrive cut-out from engagin.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Got it! Since CRM said it was on the G+ Community, I did a search.

When in doubt, take a nap; the problem may solve itself while you're sleeping.

I like this approach.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
nowhere does it indicate it intefere with the navigation, it "only" hinders hyper jumping and is capable of pulling a ship out

The Rebels' version of the Interdictor is overly simplistic; if you took Sabine's description at face value, the gravity well itself is "large enough to pull the ship out of hyperspace." That was never the point of the Interdictor. Rather, it was to project a gravity well of sufficient strength to trick a ship's automated safety cut-out into dropping out of hyperspace, then keeping it there by making it think it was too close to a gravity well to safely jump.

It's a mistake to just throw out the RAW on a whim just because something as, well, shallow as Rebels misinterprets it. The videos don't really prove your point, anyway.

Besides, I rather like the idea that an Interdictor / gravity well does more than just trick a ship. Having the gravity well have a physical effect on the accuracy of the jump adds a nice layer to the reason why a ship would need to be far enough away from a planet to jump, in addition to just needing to be far enough away to keep the hyperdrive cut-out from engagin.



While agree with you, "only" changing the jumping ships trajectory seems actually harmless comaperd to actually preventing jumps, and preventing people form exiting jumps.

I find the role useless if not to prevent a jump.

Lets escape the Empire........oh no there is the interdictor........don't worry it helps up......poof......ahh I see we got of course in the jump....there...press that button and we should be on our way back to Yavin....


Or Interdictor!!!!! We can't jump..........now we have to fight our way out ( and die trying)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
While agree with you, "only" changing the jumping ships trajectory seems actually harmless compared to actually preventing jumps, and preventing people form exiting jumps.

I find the role useless if not to prevent a jump.

Lets escape the Empire........oh no there is the interdictor........don't worry it helps up......poof......ahh I see we got of course in the jump....there...press that button and we should be on our way back to Yavin....


Or Interdictor!!!!! We can't jump..........now we have to fight our way out ( and die trying)

You're oversimplifying the scenarios rather drastically. Interdictors have operated solely by tricking a targeted ship's safety cut-out from their very first introduction back in the late 80's. Back then, WEG has no rules at all about being able to disable your ship's safety cut-out, so a ship had to either stand and fight or evade the gravity well.

Then the EU intervened and made things more complicated, so we are where we are now.

The solution is to make a rule for blind hyperspace jumps that A) results in a very real chance of Total Party Kill, and B) makes it very easy for a pursuing ship to track them if they do. (Hint, hint.)
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jumping blind should have a high danger.
But unless an interdictor uses some form of wireless system to reprogram a nav computer I can not see how how the gravity field does anything but prevent jumps
And if know or detected pull a ship from hyperspace if within range.

now we can argue how to or even if a ship can escape the gravity field.
But to claim a gravity field prevents navigation makes all planetary travel impossible , as the approach to alderaan will bump you like a pin ball ball between any and all planets and gravity field with zero chance to navigate.

So it only makes sense that a gravity field can not in any way change navigation cooordinates, as this requires reprogramming
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not reprogramming the computer; the gravity causes the ship to diverge slightly off course during the earliest stages of the jump, beyond the point at which the ship's sensors can still get an accurate position reading. Even being a nanosecond off arc on the initial trajectory can throw a ship badly off course dozens or hundreds of lightyears away by the end of the route. The ship's navcomputer still thinks its following an accurate route.

Now, the effects of gravity can be accounted for by a good Astrogation roll, but the closer the ship is to the gravity well in question, the more "chop" it has to account for when lining up for its initial jump.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
It's not reprogramming the computer; the gravity causes the ship to diverge slightly off course during the earliest stages of the jump, beyond the point at which the ship's sensors can still get an accurate position reading. Even being a nanosecond off arc on the initial trajectory can throw a ship badly off course dozens or hundreds of lightyears away by the end of the route. The ship's navcomputer still thinks its following an accurate route.

Now, the effects of gravity can be accounted for by a good Astrogation roll, but the closer the ship is to the gravity well in question, the more "chop" it has to account for when lining up for its initial jump.



yet we see them "only" pulls ships from hyperspace and prevent ships from jumping.

lets imagine rogue one, the tantive was "pushed" slightly out of course, not the empire would have even more difficulties getting the DS plans back, and they would have any guarantee that the "now blind" jump didn't get the ship closer to rebel friendlies.....

however if the ship was "simply" prevented from jumping in the first place, it could be destroyed, or boarded which would be a lot smarter.

So the interdicor not just allows you to escape, it helps you, and only a random chance that something actually worse than a delay to you desitination occurs.

Again I would say the interdictor and gravity prevents jumping not changes the navigation.
a ship that escapes the gravity pull and actually manages to jump can risk being "pushed" slightly off course and thus have danger with the jump.

but gravity to me only prevents jumping not changes the navigation
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may believe whatever you want, but the evidence you cite in no way proves your point. A key function of an Interdictor is that, once a ship is in realspace, it can be prevented from jumping to hyperspace again by the presence of a gravity well.

Now, per the RAW, a Hyperdrive Mishap occurs if the Astrogation fails his skill roll by 10 or less, with the result being different variations on a ship being thrown off course. By using the WEG Intedictor rules found in Wanted by Cracken, gravity wells force the Astrogation Difficulty up, this increasing the likelihood of a Hyperdrive Mishap, even on a jump that would normally have succeeded without any problems.

Since the effect of the rules is that a jump can be thrown off course by the presence of a gravity well, there must be some in-universe science explanation as to why. My explanation is that the presence of too much gravity at the jump’s starting point can throw the jump off course (thus, a Hyperdrive Mishap).

You’ve essentially declared that what you saw in Rebels can only be interpreted as overriding what Interdictors have always done since they were first introduced, and in a manor that would require basically rewriting the RAW. I prefer a solution that retains the RAW as much as possible.
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