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Blind Hyperspace Jumps
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
You may believe whatever you want, but the evidence you cite in no way proves your point. A key function of an Interdictor is that, once a ship is in realspace, it can be prevented from jumping to hyperspace again by the presence of a gravity well.

Now, per the RAW, a Hyperdrive Mishap occurs if the Astrogation fails his skill roll by 10 or less, with the result being different variations on a ship being thrown off course. By using the WEG Intedictor rules found in Wanted by Cracken, gravity wells force the Astrogation Difficulty up, this increasing the likelihood of a Hyperdrive Mishap, even on a jump that would normally have succeeded without any problems.

Since the effect of the rules is that a jump can be thrown off course by the presence of a gravity well, there must be some in-universe science explanation as to why. My explanation is that the presence of too much gravity at the jump’s starting point can throw the jump off course (thus, a Hyperdrive Mishap).

You’ve essentially declared that what you saw in Rebels can only be interpreted as overriding what Interdictors have always done since they were first introduced, and in a manor that would require basically rewriting the RAW. I prefer a solution that retains the RAW as much as possible.



To me this means that it is the jump that is affected, the astrogation is the consequence and becuse the gravity field needs to be defeated this should then affect astrogation.

Also by stating that a ship in real space is prevented making jumps, and if they manage they do so at the risk of a blind jump ( missing on an increased difficulty astrogation)

To me this is simply a risk, or incresed risk, of a blind, not an actual change.
I still see it as a jump prevention, and if a ship defeats the gravity, naturally systems will be affected, making bot the initial and any new jump harder.

but is still a jum prevention, not a change the destination weapon
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The hole in your theory is the escape from Jedha (which is basically the only reason we are discussing blind hyperspace jumps in the first place). If gravity wells directly affect the Hyperdrive, then there is no way the U-Wing should’ve been able to jump from that deep in the planet’s gravity well. The in-cockpit dialogue just before the jump is all about not having a course plotted, with no consideration whatsoever for what effect gravity might have on the jump.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The hole in your theory is the escape from Jedha (which is basically the only reason we are discussing blind hyperspace jumps in the first place). If gravity wells directly affect the Hyperdrive, then there is no way the U-Wing should’ve been able to jump from that deep in the planet’s gravity well. The in-cockpit dialogue just before the jump is all about not having a course plotted, with no consideration whatsoever for what effect gravity might have on the jump.



could this be becuse they had to jump within the fraction.
after all plotting a course as I think we actually see cassian do in the movie takes a while.

So to me it is we can jump, and where ever is better than here so jump, now and ignore the navigation, no matter what at least we are not here
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Within the fraction? What does that even mean?

And don’t switch positions in mid-discussion ; if you’re going to argue that gravity actually prevents a jump from happening (as opposed to just tricking the ship into thinking it isn’t safe to do so), then the escape from Jedha was the one place in all ten live-action films where it should’ve been a factor, yet it very clearly was not.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Within the fraction? What does that even mean?

And don’t switch positions in mid-discussion ; if you’re going to argue that gravity actually prevents a jump from happening (as opposed to just tricking the ship into thinking it isn’t safe to do so), then the escape from Jedha was the one place in all ten live-action films where it should’ve been a factor, yet it very clearly was not.


I meant it takes some time, maybe even a minute to calculate some coordinates, it could even take some time to turn on the nav computer, to do the hyperjump prep.
we see "emergency jumps" twice, one is blind one is not, han on the ship in tfa and in rogue one.

My point is that gavity is a pulling force, if you fly by a gravity field, strong enough it pulls you closer, if this is on you left side you are pulled to the left.

Now if you was travelling in a straight line and this happens, then yes you have had your course changed, but not the nav coodinates.

If you are on a planet, the foce pulls you towards the ground.


the artificial fields of interdictors will as in the first one change a direction.


A ship jumps to th from a to b, but the interdictor influences the jump.
if the ship manages exactly, then it jumps no issues, if it don't resist it can't jump, if the ship pushes too hard it can bounce and thus change direction from the intended.


Think that you stand on earth and jumps, you jump up, not to a side....... but if you hit something in flight that influences gravity you are either buonced or pulled towards it
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me at least the hyperdrive lanes are routes without any close gravitational anomalies.

So if you introduce and activate an inerdictor along the route the gravitiation firled will affect the ship in the hyperlane, by pulling it in.

that is what gravity does it pulls you in.

Now a magnetic field will force the appraching ship away, to bounce off and thus change the catul direction.

this is why we only see the interdictor hinder, and pull ships from hyperspace.

a blind jump on a planet like in r1, is dangerous becuse there is no set safe destination and you can en in a grav field, and the destruction it does to the planet from the force.

it is no different than what han did on the freighter other than plotting
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
Jumping blind should have a high danger.
But unless an interdictor uses some form of wireless system to reprogram a nav computer I can not see how how the gravity field does anything but prevent jumps
And if know or detected pull a ship from hyperspace if within range.

now we can argue how to or even if a ship can escape the gravity field.
But to claim a gravity field prevents navigation makes all planetary travel impossible , as the approach to alderaan will bump you like a pin ball ball between any and all planets and gravity field with zero chance to navigate.

So it only makes sense that a gravity field can not in any way change navigation cooordinates, as this requires reprogramming


Perhaps the grav well, makes the nav computer think its IN a planet's gravity field, thus makes some transpositions in numbering in the astrogational computations..

Also, what is the minimum time one CAN jump for? Micro-jumps were not a think till what, the Thrawn era? So was that cause of something to do with the actual computations, tech, or merely something no one had bothered trying before??
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, if there was a point you were making, I couldn't see it, but here goes...
Mamatried wrote:
after all plotting a course as I think we actually see cassian do in the movie takes a while.

No, we don't see him make the calculations. The scene is crystal clear on that:
    Cassian: "Punch it!"
    K-2SO: "I haven't completed my calculations."
    Cassian: (muttering) I'll make them for you. <manipulates controls and ship jumps to hyperspace>
There was clearly no time to make calculations before the ship was destroyed, so Cassian engaged the hyperdrive without them.

Quote:
So to me it is we can jump, and where ever is better than here so jump, now and ignore the navigation, no matter what at least we are not here

Well, you're basically quoting me from a few posts ago, so, rather than agree with myself by proxy, I'll just ask how this ties back to your insistence that gravity directly prevents hyperdrives from engaging.

Quote:
I meant it takes some time, maybe even a minute to calculate some coordinates, it could even take some time to turn on the nav computer, to do the hyperjump prep.

This just looks like you rambling and adding filler to your reply in a futile attempt to distract from your flawed argument.

Quote:
we see "emergency jumps" twice, one is blind one is not, han on the ship in tfa and in rogue one.

Apples and Oranges. One is in the localized artificial gravity of the landing bay of a freighter, measurable in 100 meters or less. The other is near the center of a planetary gravity well measuring hundreds of thousands of kilometers in diameter. And even if the localized artificial gravity were sufficient to throw the Falcon off course, Han makes it absolutely clear later on in the film that he is a good enough astrogator to compensate

Quote:
My point is that gavity is a pulling force, if you fly by a gravity field, strong enough it pulls you closer, if this is on you left side you are pulled to the left.

Now if you was travelling in a straight line and this happens, then yes you have had your course changed, but not the nav coodinates.

If you are on a planet, the foce pulls you towards the ground.


the artificial fields of interdictors will as in the first one change a direction.


A ship jumps to th from a to b, but the interdictor influences the jump.
if the ship manages exactly, then it jumps no issues, if it don't resist it can't jump, if the ship pushes too hard it can bounce and thus change direction from the intended.


Think that you stand on earth and jumps, you jump up, not to a side....... but if you hit something in flight that influences gravity you are either buonced or pulled towards it

And none of that justifies claiming that gravity prevents a ship from jumping to hyperspace. It could just as easily support my point about gravity making a ship go off course by "bending" its course, and mine would have the added advantage of complying with the RAW for Astrogation and Interdictors.

In fact, considering the massive acceleration numbers that ships in the SWU exhibit (in the 10,000-100,000 g range), arguing that a standard 1g planetary gravity is sufficient to keep a ship from jumping to hyperspace at all is just ridiculous.

However, since ships in hyperspace are flying on inertial guidance, with the gravity-detecting safety cut-out as a backup failsafe, it is much more plausible to argue that jumping into hyperspace too close to a planetary gravity well could "bend" the course by a tiny fraction of a degree that, when magnified over dozens or hundreds of lightyears.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Perhaps the grav well, makes the nav computer think its IN a planet's gravity field, thus makes some transpositions in numbering in the astrogational computations..

No. It's far simpler than that, and has been for decades, as written in multiple WEG sources. All hyperdrives are equipped with safety cut outs that disengage the drive - and will not allow it to reengage - if the cut-out senses that it is too close to a gravity well of sufficient size. An Interdictor doesn't need to hack the ship's drive; it just projects a gravity well equal in strength to that of a planet or other stellar body of sufficient size to present a danger to ships in hyperspace. The safety cut-out detects this, and refuses to engage unless the ship can move away from the gravity well.

Quote:
Also, what is the minimum time one CAN jump for? Micro-jumps were not a think till what, the Thrawn era? So was that cause of something to do with the actual computations, tech, or merely something no one had bothered trying before??

Under Thrawn, microjumps in the 40-50 second range (which were strictly intra-system jumps) were considered innovative due to the precision involved for their use in combat. However, slightly longer intra-system jumps were used by Lando's shieldships at his Nklon mining facility. Figure a few minutes to jump the equivalent of Earth/Mars to Mercury.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mybe I misunderstood, but to me it seems like it is said that an interdictor works by pushing stuff away.

We have seen chopper in action, and what happened with the interdictor field
It pulled ships in.

We saw them pull ships out of hyperspace so that the ship could be attacked, boarded or what ever else, all very hard if not impossible to do with a ship travelling hin hyperspace.

As I see this argument is is about this.

A) Interdictor dos nothing what so ever in preventing the actual jump, it just tampers with nav setting , so your destination becomes "random".

How is this an effective weapon?


B) An interdictor will affect a ship that travels in hyperspace by adding a gravity field to prevent the travel.
This now renders tha ship defenseless and ripe for boardings or attack.

this serves a weapon purpose, allowin the jump so the ship espcaes is not very effective and not what we see,


We never ever see anyone "adjusting their nav coordinates" after being close to an interdictor but we do see ships not being able to jump, having trouble jumping, and or being pulled from hyperspace.


Again how is allowing a ship to escape to X in any way an effective weapon comaperd to prevenitng the escape in the first place.


now the only way I see interdiction intefere with the actual diectiona and possible change in course is if the interdictor field did not fully pull the ship from hyperspace, this would most likely do things to the actual navigation, but that is the only way I see.

after all I can't see how allowing an escape even to a random destination is in any way effective comaperd to preventing the jump
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As near as I can tell, you are basing your entire understanding of Interdictors off of what you saw in an episode of a childrens’ cartoon. No serious D6 gamer considers Rebels to be a primary source, and certainly not one that justifies rewriting the entire WEG system based on the way that cartoon oversimplified and misrepresented how Interdictors work. All of my statements about how Interdictors function are based on in-universe fact; this is how Interdictors have always worked. You, on the other hand, appear to be literally making things up as you go along, with no evidentiary basis apart from your interpretation of what you saw on TV.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
As near as I can tell, you are basing your entire understanding of Interdictors off of what you saw in an episode of a childrens’ cartoon. No serious D6 gamer considers Rebels to be a primary source, and certainly not one that justifies rewriting the entire WEG system based on the way that cartoon oversimplified and misrepresented how Interdictors work. All of my statements about how Interdictors function are based on in-universe fact; this is how Interdictors have always worked. You, on the other hand, appear to be literally making things up as you go along, with no evidentiary basis apart from your interpretation of what you saw on TV.


I use canon, and EU, in this case both say the same.

Interdiction to forbid or prohibit.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gravity_well_projector/Legends

here is the EU about the gravity well.

Paraphrased: It prevents normal hyperspace travel by simulting a planet's gravity field.
And renfders travelling ships unable, thus pulling them out of hyperspace.

Noweher in any scourse does it ever stat that it changes the navigation of the jumping ship.

However since usually ships can not jump into hyperspace while in a planet's gravitaion field, we have to look at the word usually.

So in R1 what we saw was the unusual, and here I can agree that these types of unusual jumps, be them blind, are done without the use of the nav computer.

The very purpose of the interdictor was to counter the hit and run tactics used by the rebels.
The only way to do that is to prevent the ships from leaving, if they "only" changed nav coordinates then the point of the interdictor is gone, as the rebels will succeed in the hit and run, and even helped in getting away.


Now if the interdiction field forces the ship's crew to disingage the nav computer and then jump blindly, naturally this is affecting the navigation and the destination.
but it is the result of the actual prevention or intertiction that occurs.

the interdiction only prohibits, forbids and hinders
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never SAID it changed the navigation! What I said is that, because of the way WEG structured the rules for Astrogation and Interdictors, jumping into hyperspace too close to a gravity well could cause the ship to go off course. The navcomputer would not be affected in any way, and would still be following the course originally programmed into it. However, because it is essentially flying blind, with only inertial guidance to keep it on course, it has no way of recognizing that a tiny variation made in its initial heading - caused by being too close to a strong gravity well in hyperspace - caused the ship to go off course.

The only way around this, per the RAW, is for a sufficiently skilled Astrogator to roll high enough to beat the increased Astrogation Difficulty caused by being too close to a gravity well.

However, also per the RAW, the ship only goes off course if it fails its Astrogation roll by 10 or less. If it fails by more than 10, it doesn’t jump at all. What I’m talking about is the 10 point window that is the grey area between a successful jump and a failed jump that doesn’t go anywhere. Within that grey area, a ship can still jump to hyperspace, but will almost certainly get thrown off course or collide with something. Something has to cause that, and gravity causing jumps to go slightly off course during the first nanoseconds of the jump is the most logical candidate.

And it’s not sufficient to quote Wookieepedia’s article on Interdictors without quoting why gravity wells do what they do. Gravity wells have always been a brute force approach to tricking a ship’s automated safety systems into dropping out of hyperspace, no matter how Rebels chose to represent it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I never SAID it changed the navigation! What I said is that, because of the way WEG structured the rules for Astrogation and Interdictors, jumping into hyperspace too close to a gravity well could cause the ship to go off course. The navcomputer would not be affected in any way, and would still be following the course originally programmed into it. However, because it is essentially flying blind, with only inertial guidance to keep it on course, it has no way of recognizing that a tiny variation made in its initial heading - caused by being too close to a strong gravity well in hyperspace - caused the ship to go off course.

The only way around this, per the RAW, is for a sufficiently skilled Astrogator to roll high enough to beat the increased Astrogation Difficulty caused by being too close to a gravity well.

However, also per the RAW, the ship only goes off course if it fails its Astrogation roll by 10 or less. If it fails by more than 10, it doesn’t jump at all. What I’m talking about is the 10 point window that is the grey area between a successful jump and a failed jump that doesn’t go anywhere. Within that grey area, a ship can still jump to hyperspace, but will almost certainly get thrown off course or collide with something. Something has to cause that, and gravity causing jumps to go slightly off course during the first nanoseconds of the jump is the most logical candidate.

And it’s not sufficient to quote Wookieepedia’s article on Interdictors without quoting why gravity wells do what they do. Gravity wells have always been a brute force approach to tricking a ship’s automated safety systems into dropping out of hyperspace, no matter how Rebels chose to represent it.




Ahhh then I misunderstood.

Indeed the gravitational pull will be such that it will influence an actual course.
this would be considered as you say a blind jump.

I however saw this as a result of the weapon's use, more than the weapon's purpose, that I meant was to try and usually succeed in preventing jumps


so yeah then I have to agree, becuse I misunderstood



Come think of it, looking at how ww could interpret R1 as them turning the nav computer off, or not turning it on and then jumping blind.

This happens becuse the gravitational pull will be then interfearing with the navigation directly, not changing the coordinates in any way, but giving it a shake, which could reset it's zero coordinate.

So yes this could be why r1 seemed to turn it off.

and it will then affect astrogation, forcing a check to get the zero ( here ) coordinate back to the right place
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Quote:
Also, what is the minimum time one CAN jump for? Micro-jumps were not a think till what, the Thrawn era? So was that cause of something to do with the actual computations, tech, or merely something no one had bothered trying before??

Under Thrawn, microjumps in the 40-50 second range (which were strictly intra-system jumps) were considered innovative due to the precision involved for their use in combat. However, slightly longer intra-system jumps were used by Lando's shieldships at his Nklon mining facility. Figure a few minutes to jump the equivalent of Earth/Mars to Mercury.


So for non-micro jumps, what should a minimum hyperspace time be? IMO if under a min was 'revolutionary', then i can easily see 3-5 min being the Rebel time frame minimum..
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