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Naaman
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 Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Giving this a bump because, in the process of doing my stat re-writes, I ended up with a solution to my original problem about relative inaccuracy of grenade launchers: make all Grenade Launchers Swoop-Scale (or Speeder, if you aren't using my Scale House Rule). This puts all Grenade Launchers at +2D above Character in Damage, but also applies a -2D penalty to Gunnery (which is, in turn, off-set by my blast radius rules. Also, while I haven't included it in the existing stats, I've decided to allow grenade launchers to ignore up to 1D of Cover, on account of their ballistic firing arc relative to blasters. |
By "cover" do you mean hidden from view or protected from damage?
FWIW, most obstructions will protect better against a grenade then against a bullet (blaster).
There are two types of damage caused by grenades/explosives: shrapnel and concussion. The concussion is relatively short ranged with respect to the danger it threatens. Shrapnel can be potentially deadly over pretty large distances, but the trajectory of individual pieces is obviously not controllable.
Standard doctrine dictates that a typical frag's kill radius is 3-5 meters.
I know of one anecdote of a mortar (essentially the same as a frag grenade) landing right next to a guy (between him and a vehicle) and causing no harm on explosion (divine intervention, perhaps), while doing typical damage to the vehicle.
Example: a flak jacket is useful against grenades, but not against bullets. Shrapnel "slices" while bullets "pierce." This is a major difference that really matters (if physics is your thing) when determining how much protection a piece of material offers. (I assume this matters to you if you're tossing around strong and weak forces as a means to explain acceleration compensators and such like.)
My suggestion: if the target area is in range and cover is of a height that is surmountable, then consider bypassing the cover all together on a successful hit. On a near miss, let the scatter determine whether cover applies or not (landing short of the target area allows cover to apply, landing long of it, still negates cover if anyone happens to be in the blast area).
If you want to get nuanced, you could modify range by the arc required to bypass cover (put simply, add some value to the distance fired based on the height of the cover). Shooting higher necessarily reduces the horizontal distance covered by the grenade (since launch force isn't variable, the arc of travel is predictable). This could result in being "too close" to hit the desired target, as the required launch angle may send the grenade way too far after clearing the height of the cover. It could also mean that firing past cover that is "too low" will mean that the grenade hits the ground before reaching the obstacle (depending on incline/decline of terrain or other weird variables).
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Now that's a good Idea.. I could also see having some sort of in helmet tech, to tie to grenade launchers, to give them a fire control, sort of like the "smart links" systems from shadowrun..
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | By "cover" do you mean hidden from view or protected from damage? |
Damage. Concealment would be overcome by the blast radius rules.
| Quote: | | FWIW, most obstructions will protect better against a grenade then against a bullet (blaster). |
Unless the grenade can be aimed precisely enough to detonate off to the side and go "around" the obstruction, which is what I'm going for.
| Quote: | | I know of one anecdote of a mortar (essentially the same as a frag grenade) landing right next to a guy (between him and a vehicle) and causing no harm on explosion (divine intervention, perhaps), while doing typical damage to the vehicle. |
In garhkal's Artillery topic, I wrestled over how to represent the randomness of an artillery attack and ultimately decided it was the one place I would allow a standard Dodge, not because artillery was dodgeable, but because there was no other method to represent the sort of randomness involved. My current theory is to allow everyone within the grenade's blast radius a free Dodge roll which in turn generates a modifier to reduce the grenade's damage roll.
| Quote: | | If you want to get nuanced |
That's the thing; I don't. I want a simple rule that is quick and easy to use that represents the ability of a grenade to "get around" Cover. Applying a bonus to that effect means not adding an additional load on the GM's plate.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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Sure... it's just that "ballistic" firing is a double edged sword, since it is especially reliant on geometry and further limited by gravity. There are certain trade-offs when it comes to lobbing a shot.
Not sure if you've considered the following: HEDP round (high explosive, dual purpose) are actually "armor piercing" so they penetrate hardened targets, and THEN explode...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Sure... it's just that "ballistic" firing is a double edged sword, since it is especially reliant on geometry and further limited by gravity. There are certain trade-offs when it comes to lobbing a shot. |
That's part of why I increased the Scale by 2D, to represent how the weapon is relatively cumbersome, and requires a higher degree of skill to be truly accurate.
| Quote: | | Not sure if you've considered the following: HEDP round (high explosive, dual purpose) are actually "armor piercing" so they penetrate hardened targets, and THEN explode... |
I had heard of that, but at the same time it's hard to represent in the existing Damage system. I can work with it inside my blast radius rule, but it wouldn't be specific to that.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | Sure... it's just that "ballistic" firing is a double edged sword, since it is especially reliant on geometry and further limited by gravity. There are certain trade-offs when it comes to lobbing a shot. |
That's part of why I increased the Scale by 2D, to represent how the weapon is relatively cumbersome, and requires a higher degree of skill to be truly accurate. |
IMO the up-scaling is a good solution for launchers.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Quote: | | Not sure if you've considered the following: HEDP round (high explosive, dual purpose) are actually "armor piercing" so they penetrate hardened targets, and THEN explode... |
I had heard of that, but at the same time it's hard to represent in the existing Damage system. I can work with it inside my blast radius rule, but it wouldn't be specific to that. |
But do HEDPs exist in SW? If not, is there any compelling reason that they should? If not then why bother?
The closest thing I can think of is the single-use ships used by the Alliance in the adventure module Black Ice to bore into the big ship to get teams inside. So of course they do not explode once they get inside, so not that close.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | IMO the up-scaling is a good solution for launchers. |
Yup. I had originally intended it just for vehicle-mounted launchers, but the more I think about it, the same advantages and limitations would apply to hand-held versions. Of course, the more I'm looking at the stats for grenade launchers, I really need to clean them up and make them more uniform, too.
| Quote: | | But do HEDPs exist in SW? If not, is there any compelling reason that they should? If not then why bother? |
I expect they do; it's too efficient not to be developed in some usable form, but the RAW doesn't really have a mechanism for armor penetration. I've made up some specific rules for personal weapons that ignore up to x amount of armor or shields, but when it comes to vehicles, there's no mechanism to do it. Stats-wise, the only method to duplicate it would be to take a shaped-charge warhead (high damage, small blast radius) and increase the blast radius to represent the shrapnel effect. I've also heard of a multi-purpose version that incorporates incendiary effects, but I digress...
| Quote: | | The closest thing I can think of is the single-use ships used by the Alliance in the adventure module Black Ice to bore into the big ship to get teams inside. So of course they do not explode once they get inside, so not that close. |
Yeah, those were weird. More like WH40K boarding torpedoes than actual ships.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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I'm thinking I'll write up stats for four, possibly five, different types of grenade launchers. All will be statted out at Swoop-Scale, regardless of whether they are hand-held or vehicle mounted. In general terms, the different types I'm considering are as follows:Grenade Launcher - Basically a rifle-size weapon with either a detachable box magazine or a pump-action feed, ala a shotgun.
Grenade Launcher "Carbine" - A compact version of the Grenade Launcher, with a shorter barrel (thus shorter range), also available as an under-barrel weapon.
Assault Grenade Launcher - As the Grenade Launcher, but able to fire short bursts of four grenades at a time. Advanced models exist that are equipped with a spiral-pattern drum magazine (inside the drum are six separate four-round magazines, arranged in a spiral pattern around a central point) with a smart control that allows the grenadier to load different types of grenades and toggle between them with the touch of a button, without having to switch magazines.
Repeating Grenade Launcher - In the same size category as the E-Web or Riot Blaster, the RGL would be crew-served, and would have to be either tripod- or vehicle-mounted, but has a much higher sustained rate of fire than the hand-held models. The one I haven't quite decided if I want to do or not would be a Grenade Launcher Pistol, with a 4-5 round magazine, but compact and able to be fired one-handed.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | The one I haven't quite decided if I want to do or not would be a Grenade Launcher Pistol, with a 4-5 round magazine, but compact and able to be fired one-handed. |
Consider microgrenades or some kind of small payload appropriate for a hand-held weapon. Consider a 2- or 3-shot capacity (even if using micro grenades), and a one-round-at-a-time reload process (like a shotgun).
As for grip/handling, consider a hip-carried (that is, "holstered") weapon that the hand slides "into" with built in bracing/balance points that wrap around the wrist/forearm to help manage the bulk/mass for one-handed operation. Instead of a shoulder stock, the weapon has a sort of sleeve that is aft of the pistol grip... almost like a wrist mounted weapon that can be stowed/holstered.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Consider microgrenades or some kind of small payload appropriate for a hand-held weapon. Consider a 2- or 3-shot capacity (even if using micro grenades), and a one-round-at-a-time reload process (like a shotgun). |
I've decided to fold micro-grenades and the micro-grenade launcher into the bolt gun crossover stats I did for WH40K. I should clarify that I'm picturing standard launchable grenades as smaller than 40mm, since the SWU has a pattern of making explosives smaller than their real-life contemporaries. Once I wrap up the grenade stats, transposing them into micro-grenades will be easy enough.
| Quote: | | As for grip/handling, consider a hip-carried (that is, "holstered") weapon that the hand slides "into" with built in bracing/balance points that wrap around the wrist/forearm to help manage the bulk/mass for one-handed operation. Instead of a shoulder stock, the weapon has a sort of sleeve that is aft of the pistol grip... almost like a wrist mounted weapon that can be stowed/holstered. |
Maybe it'd just be better to fold the pistol idea into the carbine concept and give the stand-alone weapon (as in, not underslung) a folding shoulder stock.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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