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Naaman
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 Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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A very simple and abstract way to use tactics would be to have the leader make a tactics roll and grant the unit a bonus to a single skill for the duration of the scene.
Canging tactics could require an action, and replace the prior bonus. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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I believe the skill should be played as intended. I pulled out R&E and read the skill (besides the obscure skill that Whil mentions is in Tatooine Manhunt, it seems that R&E is the only official place where the skill appears).
First, the skill is a Knowledge skill, so successful skill rolls should reward the character with information that he did not have. This is in line with the examples given in the R&E skill description.
Take this a step further, the Tactics skills is a great way for the GM to voice tactical options to the player. Normally, a GM should keep his trap shut and allow the players to come with the plan. Rolling on Tactics is a way to gain, legitimately, information about the encounter from the GM. This is akin to a D&D character casting a spell to gain insight from his god.
For example, let's say that the character is piloting the Falcon, being chased by TIE fighters, with an entire Imperial Fleet not too far behind the TIEs.
The hyperdrive is out. So, the players decide to dive into the Anoat asteroid field. But, everyone knows that this is a temporary situation. The Empire has seen the Falcon dive into the asteroid field, and Darth Vader himself has ordered the entire fleet into the field to follow the Falcon.
Odds are, the Falcon will be found and captured, eventually.
Tactics Roll.
Han rolls a Tactics roll and is successful. This is where the GM is allowed to tell the player that the asteroids have caves. The GM suggests that maybe the players can evade the Imperials for a greater amount of time by hiding the ship in one of the caves.
Directions The Players Had Not Considered.
So, the GM can use successful Tactics skill rolls to suggest actions that the characters can take. The players above were not thinking at all about caves on the asteroids. The GM uses the successful Tactics roll to provide the players with an idea on how to get away from the Imperials.
The players don't have to follow the advice. And, the advice gained by the Tactics roll does not have to be 100% beneficial. The players do find a cave, and it does allow them to evade the Imperials for longer than the players originally though possible, but the cave ends up being the gullet of a giant space slug--another obstacle that the players must overcome.
Military.
The Tactics skill, according to its description, is usually associated with military knowledge.
The skill also says, "difficulties should be based on various factors of complexity within a battle: how many units are involved, the setting (open space or asteroid field, plains or jungle terrain), and the difference in training and equipment between units (Star Destroyers against starfighters, stormtroopers against Ewoks, Imperial Army troopers against crack Rebel commandos).
So, if the players have befriended a tribe of Ewoks on Endor but are struggling to figure how best to use the Ewoks in the situation, a character could roll on Tactics. with a successful roll, the GM could suggest that the Ewoks be deployed to set up a lot of traps for the Scout Troopers and the AT-STs.
In Summary.
The Tactics skill is a Knowledge skill and therefore successful rolls should result in the GM providing advice on the tactical situation for the players to consider. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the breakdown.
| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | I pulled out R&E and read the skill (besides the obscure skill that Whil mentions is in Tatooine Manhunt, it seems that R&E is the only official place where the skill appears). |
Tatooine Manhunt was "official" but it just didn't give any details about how the skill worked. It began the tradition of official WEG writers who just make up skills and put them in stats with arbitrary values.
To be complete, in Tatooine Manhunt the skill was "Starship Tactics". Adar Tallon had 9D+2, and it was under Mechanical. The Rules Companion moved Starship Tactics to Knowledge, and that was the first source to describe the skill with in-game uses but it only applied to capital ships and fleet battles. A tactics skill was absent from the Blue Vader 2e core, but then "Tactics" appears in R&E, the only 2e description of the skill and possibly the first 2e appearance of the skill. (Tactics also appeared the same year as R&E in the 2e update of Tatooine Manhunt in Classic Adventures: Volume Three, but they erroneously put it under Mechanical as "Tactics: Capital Ships 9D+2").
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | Thanks for the breakdown.
| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | I pulled out R&E and read the skill (besides the obscure skill that Whil mentions is in Tatooine Manhunt, it seems that R&E is the only official place where the skill appears). |
Tatooine Manhunt was "official" but it just didn't give any details about how the skill worked. It began the tradition of official WEG writers who just make up skills and put them in stats with arbitrary values.
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They got nothing on White Wolf and "Craft Sex Toy"
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Han rolls a Tactics roll and is successful. This is where the GM is allowed to tell the player that the asteroids have caves. The GM suggests that maybe the players can evade the Imperials for a greater amount of time by hiding the ship in one of the caves. |
Which ultimately translates into a bonus / modifier to avoid detection by Imperial sensors.
I'm with Naaman on this one. None of us are tactical experts (barring a few members with military backgrounds who do actually know a thing or two about, for example, small unit tactics), and even then, the nuances of tactics in the SWU are likely different from our own in ways we don't understand. But the characters we play DO understand them, and that understanding is represented by D values.
Knowledge skills simply allowing the GM to provide additional information places an extra burden on the GM, who often has to invent that information out of whole cloth in addition to everything else he has to keep track of.
Far simpler to say that a good Tactics roll provides a bonus to whatever action is to be taken, whether it's added to an opponent's Sensor Difficulty for hiding in an asteroid field or to Blaster for choosing the ideal placement for a repeating blaster when setting up an ambush.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Han rolls a Tactics roll and is successful. This is where the GM is allowed to tell the player that the asteroids have caves. The GM suggests that maybe the players can evade the Imperials for a greater amount of time by hiding the ship in one of the caves. |
Asteroids having caves has nothing to do with tactics though. So the GM now has to first, let the players know their are caves (based on Planetary Systems or Survival: Asteroid Belt?) and then give the player the information that they should hide in the caves to avoid detection.
| Quote: | | So, if the players have befriended a tribe of Ewoks on Endor but are struggling to figure how best to use the Ewoks in the situation, a character could roll on Tactics. with a successful roll, the GM could suggest that the Ewoks be deployed to set up a lot of traps for the Scout Troopers and the AT-STs. |
I'm OK with this usage.
| Quote: | In Summary.
The Tactics skill is a Knowledge skill and therefore successful rolls should result in the GM providing advice on the tactical situation for the players to consider. |
I agree with CRMcNeill that if Tactics only provides knowledge that's sometimes too burdensome. And it's not like Star Wars tactics always match up with real world tactics. [Stormtroopers boarding the Tantive IV]
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Far simpler to say that a good Tactics roll provides a bonus to whatever action is to be taken, whether it's added to an opponent's Sensor Difficulty for hiding in an asteroid field or to Blaster for choosing the ideal placement for a repeating blaster when setting up an ambush. |
I favor this as the default use of Tactics supplemented by possible tactical hints or knowledge from the GM when appropriate. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Han rolls a Tactics roll and is successful. This is where the GM is allowed to tell the player that the asteroids have caves. The GM suggests that maybe the players can evade the Imperials for a greater amount of time by hiding the ship in one of the caves. |
Asteroids having caves has nothing to do with tactics though. |
It does. Think of it as a tactic taken in a chase. The Tactics throw made the player aware of caves in the asteroids from which to hide. It's a tactic taken to evade the Imperial pursuers.
| Quote: | | So the GM now has to first, let the players know their are caves (based on Planetary Systems or Survival: Asteroid Belt?) and then give the player the information that they should hide in the caves to avoid detection. |
It's an option for the chase. An idea that can help the fleeing PCs. A tactic that they can take.
I wouldn't use a Planetary Systems roll. I'd just use Tactics. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | I wouldn't use a Planetary Systems roll. I'd just use Tactics. |
I could see a player making a case for both. A character who doesn't know a thing about Tactics, but does know a thing or two about asteroids (expressed as having extra dice in Planetary Systems), whether as a scholar, space miner, or whatever, could easily arrive at the same conclusion as a tactician when rolling dice to find a place to hide.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | So, if the players have befriended a tribe of Ewoks on Endor but are struggling to figure how best to use the Ewoks in the situation, a character could roll on Tactics. with a successful roll, the GM could suggest that the Ewoks be deployed to set up a lot of traps for the Scout Troopers and the AT-STs. |
I'm OK with this usage. |
I think it's crucial that PCs understand it as an option, though. Even though we see traps and immobilizing attacks in the film, there isn't really a rules framework for including it. Which is why I did this.
| Quote: | | I favor this as the default use of Tactics supplemented by possible tactical hints or knowledge from the GM when appropriate. |
There was mention in another discussion a while back of allowing characters to use Knowledge skill rolls to "invent" facts. For instance, on a good roll, a character could declare that asteroids of a particular type of metal / ore are harder for sensors to scan, thus making Asteroid A a better choice of hiding spot than Asteroid B.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | I wouldn't use a Planetary Systems roll. I'd just use Tactics. |
I could see a player making a case for both. A character who doesn't know a thing about Tactics, but does know a thing or two about asteroids (expressed as having extra dice in Planetary Systems), whether as a scholar, space miner, or whatever, could easily arrive at the same conclusion as a tactician when rolling dice to find a place to hide. |
Oh, I agree. It's just that we were focusing on the Tactics skill.
There's lots of overlap with skills, especially Knowledge skills, sometimes. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | So, if the players have befriended a tribe of Ewoks on Endor but are struggling to figure how best to use the Ewoks in the situation, a character could roll on Tactics. with a successful roll, the GM could suggest that the Ewoks be deployed to set up a lot of traps for the Scout Troopers and the AT-STs. |
I'm OK with this usage. |
I think it's crucial that PCs understand it as an option, though. Even though we see traps and immobilizing attacks in the film, there isn't really a rules framework for including it. Which is why I did this. |
I envision it like tactical advice that the GM can give to the player.
For example, a PC is looking down a long corridor with several doors off to each side. The player doesn't seem to be considering that Stormtroopers might be laying in wait, behind those doors. The player only seems to be focusing on the long corridor.
A successful Tactics skill roll is a great time for the GM to step in and say something like, "Don't discount these doorways. If the Imps are waiting for you, these are spectacular ambush points."
Where, if a Tacitcs roll wasn't made (or failed), the GM wouldn't say anything and just let the player figure it out for himself.
A GM doesn't have to be a tactical genius to help the player with a Tactics roll. The fact that the GM knows what NPC forces he has, and what their plan of attack will be, is enough for a GM to give advice to a player on what could (not will happen) happen. Give the PC some advice on something obvious that the PC doesn't seem to be considering, maybe. Just help the player out a bit. Give him something to chew on. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Han rolls a Tactics roll and is successful. This is where the GM is allowed to tell the player that the asteroids have caves. The GM suggests that maybe the players can evade the Imperials for a greater amount of time by hiding the ship in one of the caves. |
Asteroids having caves has nothing to do with tactics though. |
It does. Think of it as a tactic taken in a chase. The Tactics throw made the player aware of caves in the asteroids from which to hide. It's a tactic taken to evade the Imperial pursuers.. |
I am with Bren here.. TO me knowing the asteroids are there is a function of planetary systems, or potentially survival: space. Not tactics.
| Quote: | | A GM doesn't have to be a tactical genius to help the player with a Tactics roll. The fact that the GM knows what NPC forces he has, and what their plan of attack will be, is enough for a GM to give advice to a player on what could (not will happen) happen. Give the PC some advice on something obvious that the PC doesn't seem to be considering, maybe. Just help the player out a bit. Give him something to chew on. |
But would it be the player making a call for the tactics roll, OR would the DM make it in secret to give said hints?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | But would it be the player making a call for the tactics roll, OR would the DM make it in secret to give said hints? |
Successful Tactics roll earns the helpful information. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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That doesn't answer the question. Is it the player who would call for the tactics roll, or the DM who would make it in secret?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | That doesn't answer the question. Is it the player who would call for the tactics roll, or the DM who would make it in secret? |
It could be either/or, or the GM could prompt the player by hinting that a roll might be appropriate under these circumstances.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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