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Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I;ve known 2 other GMs who like me, are called Killer GMs by players. ALL because they WILL allow a PC to die, if the situation calls for it, NOT because they've actually killed one, just because they WILL, when it comes up...
The dice giveth and the dice taketh away.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That they do, but is strange, going over the Many gaming forums i've been on, what gets some players to 'label a DM a killer one'.

One group of dnd guys have been playing 30 months when i first heard about it from 2 of the players. IN that 30 months (2-3 games a month, 8 hrs a game session), they had over 50 pcs and henchmen die. YET NOT ONE felt their DM was a killer.
Compared to a different group, where in 4 yrs of solid gaming every week, they had a grand total of half a dozen PC deaths.. YET DID consider their DM to be a killer...

Strange that.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I've known 2 other GMs who like me, are called Killer GMs by players. ALL because they WILL allow a PC to die, if the situation calls for it, NOT because they've actually killed one, just because they WILL, when it comes up...


garhkal wrote:
That they do, but is strange, going over the Many gaming forums i've been on, what gets some players to 'label a DM a killer one'.

One group of dnd guys have been playing 30 months when i first heard about it from 2 of the players. IN that 30 months (2-3 games a month, 8 hrs a game session), they had over 50 pcs and henchmen die. YET NOT ONE felt their DM was a killer.
Compared to a different group, where in 4 yrs of solid gaming every week, they had a grand total of half a dozen PC deaths.. YET DID consider their DM to be a killer...

Strange that.


Yeah, there's definitely some sort of arbitrary standard going on with that. But then again, it's entirely a matter of opinion with no universal measurement so that's to be expected.

And yeah, I don't get calling a DM/GM/Storyteller who's willing to let PCs suffer the possibly lethal consequences of their actions a so-called "killer DM." If your PCs are too dumb to live, then they're gonna die. Taking away the danger makes the game too lame to play and/or boring. The thrill of the close scrapes is what makes games fun. No risk means no meaningful reward, no matter how many GPs or XPs you get at the end of the adventure. You have to be willing to risk failure to get something worthwhile, and risk of failure means that your PC might actually fail, which means you PC might actually die. Calling a DM who's supposed to introduce that risk of death to the PCs a "killer DM" is just badmouthing a DM who's just doing their job.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had characters die before. The stupidest one was in D&D where I had an 8th level fighter type get hit by a basic zombie... rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll. Confirmation roll was also a natural 20... thus triggering an "optional" rule: a third attack roll that results in a "hit" causes instant death. The third roll was also a natural 20.

Confused

Another time, our party was on a mission to help some village because of some elemental terrorizing it. We found the layer and no-one wanted to go inside. I went in, hoping to motivate the rest of the party to come with me. It was pitch black dark, so I couldn't see. Despite being effectively blind, my character held his own for 6 or 7 rounds against a much higher level creature than himself, took away over half of its hit points (a total of around 100 damage) with purely physical attacks but NOT ONE other player wanted to enter the cave to even cast a healing spell... or daylight or give any kind of aid at all... they all just sat back and watched... totally lame... the five of us together would have made short work of it....

A member here (might have been Ray) posted that he was playing in an alternate universe and that he enjoyed the freedom to let the PCs be the "Luke Skywalkers" of the story. At least for me, when a GM refuses to fudge a roll (in secret, of course) to prevent PC death at a lame time, he is implying that the PCs are not the primary protagonists of the story (suppose Luke had been killed because he was in the path of a stray blaster shot fired by a stormtooper that bumped his head going through a door... or suppose Obi-Wan had been killed by a clone trooper being shot in the back during Order 66... It's okay to kill off Ki Adi Mundi like that... but not your heroes. It's anti-climatic and just bad story telling [IMO]). Whereas if we acknowledge that the PCs ARE the Luke Skywalkers of their story, then it makes perfect sense that killing PCs should be reserved for those moments when 1) the dice call for it, and 2) it is dramatically appropriate (both conditions should be met). The exception, of course, is a player who chooses to do something that is so likely to get him killed that a reasonable person would call him suicidal.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I've had characters die before. The stupidest one was in D&D where I had an 8th level fighter type get hit by a basic zombie... rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll. Confirmation roll was also a natural 20... thus triggering an "optional" rule: a third attack roll that results in a "hit" causes instant death. The third roll was also a natural 20.

Confused


That sooooo reminds me of the Barbarians: True Masters of the Mind story. In case you haven't heard it, here's a link to the JPEG image of the story. I'd post it as an image if I knew how to get it to work, assuming that it could work on this forum. I've had issues trying to post images before.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:

And yeah, I don't get calling a DM/GM/Storyteller who's willing to let PCs suffer the possibly lethal consequences of their actions a so-called "killer DM." If your PCs are too dumb to live, then they're gonna die. Taking away the danger makes the game too lame to play and/or boring. The thrill of the close scrapes is what makes games fun. No risk means no meaningful reward, no matter how many GPs or XPs you get at the end of the adventure. You have to be willing to risk failure to get something worthwhile, and risk of failure means that your PC might actually fail, which means you PC might actually die. Calling a DM who's supposed to introduce that risk of death to the PCs a "killer DM" is just badmouthing a DM who's just doing their job.


My sentiments exactly Sut.. I've never understood the mentality of calling a DM a killer, just because he MAY LET death happen if it crops up.
I Understand it if the DM often stages things to actually TRY and kill a PC.... OR 3!
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Naaman wrote:
I've had characters die before. The stupidest one was in D&D where I had an 8th level fighter type get hit by a basic zombie... rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll. Confirmation roll was also a natural 20... thus triggering an "optional" rule: a third attack roll that results in a "hit" causes instant death. The third roll was also a natural 20.

Confused


That sooooo reminds me of the Barbarians: True Masters of the Mind story. In case you haven't heard it, here's a link to the JPEG image of the story. I'd post it as an image if I knew how to get it to work, assuming that it could work on this forum. I've had issues trying to post images before.



Laughing The parallels are uncanny.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
Naaman wrote:
I've had characters die before. The stupidest one was in D&D where I had an 8th level fighter type get hit by a basic zombie... rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll. Confirmation roll was also a natural 20... thus triggering an "optional" rule: a third attack roll that results in a "hit" causes instant death. The third roll was also a natural 20.

Confused


That sooooo reminds me of the Barbarians: True Masters of the Mind story. In case you haven't heard it, here's a link to the JPEG image of the story. I'd post it as an image if I knew how to get it to work, assuming that it could work on this forum. I've had issues trying to post images before.



Laughing The parallels are uncanny.

I know, right? I just got into Pathfinder so I'm getting some hands-on experience with the d20 system and those triple-natural-20s are uncanny (and not a little spooky) when they happen. Shocked
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two to go, and g will be in the 12K club...
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:

I know, right? I just got into Pathfinder so I'm getting some hands-on experience with the d20 system and those triple-natural-20s are uncanny (and not a little spooky) when they happen. Shocked


That is why i like how i run nat 20s for 2nd edition adnd. Roll a 20, and its NOT what you need to hit, you crit. Roll double damage for the weapon, THEN add in modifiers. So if you 'crit' with a spear, roll d6 twice, then add in your str, weapon's magic, specialization bonus etc.. That way its not TOO lethal.

And if you NEED to roll a 20 to hit, you can't ever crit.

But on the flip side, if you roll a nat 1, you have bad juju.. If say you and a comrade are fighting monster X, and he's "Engaged" with you (he's been rolling to hit YOU not your ally), and YOU fumble, HE gets a free attack/attack routine. So if that monster say is an Orc with a long sword, he gets a free swing. If HE fumbles on that free swing, nothing bad happens.

Where as if HE fumbled hitting you, only You get the free-attack back. Your ally engaged with him, does not. NOR DOES HE get a free attack, if your ally fumbles..

However, if that monster is one that has a claw/claw/bite, THEY GET A FULL free routine against you!... Other than "touched based" effects (like ghouls paralyzation, energy drain of undead etc), Special aspects of their to hits do NOT count..

Such as an Owl bear/regular bear. Normally if one or both claws hit with a nat 18 or higher, they pull you in for a bear hug. HOWEVER if they do so, via a 'free-attack' cause You fumbled, they do NOT get that potential for a bear hug. Or for a Hook horror, where if both claws hit, he automatically bites, IF BOTH claws hit because of his 'free-attack' from you fumbling, he does NOT get the 'free bite' as well..
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Sutehp wrote:

I know, right? I just got into Pathfinder so I'm getting some hands-on experience with the d20 system and those triple-natural-20s are uncanny (and not a little spooky) when they happen. Shocked


That is why i like how i run nat 20s for 2nd edition adnd. Roll a 20, and [if] its NOT what you need to hit, you crit. Roll double damage for the weapon, THEN add in modifiers. So if you 'crit' with a spear, roll d6 twice, then add in your str, weapon's magic, specialization bonus etc.. That way its not TOO lethal.


Yeah, I was just playing Pathfinder again last night and saw this rule in action once again (after a number of times previously since I started playing Pathfinder in December). You gotta love those confirm-to-crit rolls.

garhkal wrote:
And if you NEED to roll a 20 to hit, you can't ever crit.


Now THIS rule I didn't know about.

garhkal wrote:
But on the flip side, if you roll a nat 1, you have bad juju.. If say you and a comrade are fighting monster X, and he's "Engaged" with you (he's been rolling to hit YOU not your ally), and YOU fumble, HE gets a free attack/attack routine. So if that monster say is an Orc with a long sword, he gets a free swing. If HE fumbles on that free swing, nothing bad happens.

Where as if HE fumbled hitting you, only You get the free-attack back. Your ally engaged with him, does not. NOR DOES HE get a free attack, if your ally fumbles..

However, if that monster is one that has a claw/claw/bite, THEY GET A FULL free routine against you!... Other than "touched based" effects (like ghouls paralyzation, energy drain of undead etc), Special aspects of their to hits do NOT count..

Such as an Owl bear/regular bear. Normally if one or both claws hit with a nat 18 or higher, they pull you in for a bear hug. HOWEVER if they do so, via a 'free-attack' cause You fumbled, they do NOT get that potential for a bear hug. Or for a Hook horror, where if both claws hit, he automatically bites, IF BOTH claws hit because of his 'free-attack' from you fumbling, he does NOT get the 'free bite' as well..


This reminded me of something. I was in a Pathfinder adventure last night where my party had to fight a half-dragon cyclops (along with two skalds/witches), who attacked me with both claws and a wing attack each turn. My character is a swashbuckler, which means that I'm basically a front-liner/tank that depends on dodging or parrying instead of armor to keep from getting damaged. (When I rolled my swashbuckler, I always envisioned him fighting alongside a dedicated and armored tank who would soak up all the damage while I just darted in and out and damaged the enemy without having to worry about being hit. Needless to say, I was a bit alarmed and dismayed to find out that I [through no fault of my own, I might add! Oh, who am I kidding, it was totally my fault] had actually become the tank. I have since resigned myself to fighting in the front line. I've actually even come to enjoy it, oddly enough. Razz )

Anyway, the point is, I totally love my swashbuckler's ability to Opportune Parry and Riposte where I can (if I roll successfully against the incoming attack) parry an incoming blow and then do damage to the enemy when it's not my turn. Of I recall correctly, I can only riposte once per turn but I can parry as many times as I have Panache Points (my total pool is 6 points and I can only regain points on either a critical hit or a blow that kills a creature equal or above my level). Needless to say, parrying incoming blows has saved my @$$ numerous times. It especially helped against that half-dragon last night.

Of course, I eventually took enough damage during the fight that I went into negative hit points and went down. Fortunately, the cleric in the party channeled and I got back up using Kip-up (a swashbuckler ability that allows me to stand up from prone as a move action without provoking an Attack of Opportunity. Funny thing is, my Swashbuckler was lvl 9 and that was the first time I ever had to use Kip-up (you get it at 3rd level), but damn, it was handy to have when I needed it.

Anyway, this points up another lesson all adventurers have to heed: Never, never, never, EVER go on an adventure without a cleric (or some other dedicated healer), especially if you're playing upper tier instead of lower tier. That's why I'm rolling my second character as a cleric.

Anyway, I have to read up on action economy now.

Man, I didn't think I'd ever love a d20 game, but I love Pathfinder. I'm even getting custom minis soon from Hero Forge! I didn't think I'd ever be buying miniatures, ferchrissakes....
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Yeah, I was just playing Pathfinder again last night and saw this rule in action once again (after a number of times previously since I started playing Pathfinder in December). You gotta love those confirm-to-crit rolls.


Most of the games i've played in, never used a 'confirm to crit' rule. The only ones that did, was with an open-ending crit system. Roll a nat 20, roll again.
If the 1st reroll is also a nat-20, reroll a 2nd time. If it's just a hit damage is x2.
If the 2nd reroll is a nat-20, reroll a 3rd time. if just a hit, its x3.
And so on..
Only ever played under 2 gms who HAD that rule.. PCS loved it at first, but really hated it when they got a 4x crit from an ogre or giant!

Sutehp wrote:
Now THIS rule I didn't know about.


It's a house rule i've long used.

Sutehp wrote:
Anyway, the point is, I totally love my swashbuckler's ability to Opportune Parry and Riposte where I can (if I roll successfully against the incoming attack) parry an incoming blow and then do damage to the enemy when it's not my turn. Of I recall correctly, I can only riposte once per turn but I can parry as many times as I have Panache Points (my total pool is 6 points and I can only regain points on either a critical hit or a blow that kills a creature equal or above my level). Needless to say, parrying incoming blows has saved my @$$ numerous times. It especially helped against that half-dragon last night.


Don't i know it. One of the few options i use from the splat books/skills and powers 2e put out in their latter years, was the "Block" option (also called a combat parry). I have it as a HR if you have 2 attacks a round (whether from dual wielding, or via being high level), you can sacrifice one of them to do a combat parry. Roll to hit, and if you get a higher AC hit than your attacker did, you parried his blow. IF he got a nat-20 though, YOU must get a nat-20 as well.

In the 2nd rather long campaign i DM'ed, after adapting it, the group was fighting a bunch of ogres/orogs with a 5 pack of Verbeeg and a mountain giant leader. Ave PC level was 11th, with a trio of 6th and one 7th level henchmen in it. That MG came towards one of the party's lower level fighters (a henchman of the main party mage)., who gave up one of his 2 attacks to parry..
We rolled it out, the Giant hit 2 'ticks in the initiative count' before He would have acted. HAD he not given up hi 2nd attack to try the combat parry, he'd have died by 23 points of damage from me rolling a Crit. Everyone watched as he rolled his die (used one of those die rolling trays), and HE got a 20.

The party laughed so loud, even our neighbor heard it..
And just for s*** and grins, we rolled out "had he not been hit and got in HIS blow to the giant, what would have happened.. NOTHING. HE FUMBLED!"

So rolled a nat-20 AND a nat-1 one right after the other...

Sutehp wrote:
Anyway, this points up another lesson all adventurers have to heed: Never, never, never, EVER go on an adventure without a cleric (or some other dedicated healer), especially if you're playing upper tier instead of lower tier. That's why I'm rolling my second character as a cleric.


My group i dm for knows that well. At the height of our group (before we had 3 move, 2 drop out for work and 1 leave for family issues) we had 4 players with a cleric of some sort. Made for some interesting party dynamics, as NOT ONE was of the same faith...
One worshiped an elf god, one a dwarf god, one a human god of knowledge and one a human god of barbarians...
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For my cleric, I still have to decide if I want to make him a bog-standard healbot-support cleric since its the standard role for clerics and I still need to learn the class, or make him an archer cleric who can deal damage at range but can still move fast enough to rush in with touch spells to help the party. If I choose the latter, though, that means totally revamping the character concept I originally envisioned. To make that archer cleric, I'd have to 1) change him from a human to an elf, 2) totally rework his stats to get a higher Dex (as well as other abilities), and, if worse comes to worst, 3) likely change his deity, domains and spell list to optimize him for ranged combat.

I may just play the guy I originally envisioned since its less work. I got enough on my plate just trying to learn about standard clerics.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When i play clerics, i try to stay Clear of the standard heal-bot design as much as possible..
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
When i play clerics, i try to stay Clear of the standard heal-bot design as much as possible..


Totally understandable and likely an attitude I will have in the future. For now, though, I still need to learn the class so I might take the healbot design just to make things easy on myself for the time being.
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