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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | Luke's use of Doppelganger facts:
- lot's of concentration
- LONG range |
Likely connected, as in "Modified by Proximity."
| Quote: | - can touch others
- can take massive amounts of damage |
Possibly corporeal / incorporeal option, in that the Doppleganger can appear solid when it needs to, but is otherwise illusory.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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Trying to catch up in this thread!
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Obviously, either the casino planet was somewhere in the same sector, within a few hours, or hyperdrives are much faster in the TFA Era than in the Classic Era. |
I peeped TLJ Visual Dictionary at the bookstore yesterday and unfortunately, Pablo Hidalgo put Crait in the southern galaxy near Sullust, and Cantonic (the casino planet where Canto Bight is) all way in the northeast galaxy in the furtherest reaches of the Corporate Sector, because... Disney EU.
| nuclearwookiee wrote: | | I'm so sad that in the end, nobody showed up. Princess Leia herself sends out a personal plea for help, and nobody shows up. Now the entire rebellion (at least we're no longer pretending it's something else) fits on the Millennium Falcon. |
You didn't notice the rebel-aligned Force-sensitive kid at the end? It seemed to suggest that there is a new generation of resistance out there. (Maybe there will be a big time jump to Episode IX. I kinda hope so since TFA and TLJ partially overlap each other in time frame which is unprecedented in Star Wars.) Anyway, hope has to hang by a thread to make good's defeat over evil more dramatic.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Technically, there was gravity inside the ship, which caused them to free-fall out of the bay. |
Yes, even without your posited 'projected multidirectional artificial gravity field' below the bomb hatch opening, there was artificial gravity pointed up from the rest of the bottom of the ship, likely enough that would pull on the bombs from underneath but all sides with a net result that would drop them strait "down". They appeared to fall as if there were a 1g force and artificial gravity is 1g.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | How far down that extends, I don't know, but this is Star Wars, so it'll probably just get handwaved that there was some sort of accelerator tractor field or something. |
Sure, tractor tech could very easily be used to launch the bombs too, but I think it is more probably that this would not even be addressed at all.
| Rancor Pit users wrote: | | <much discussion about Phasma's armor blaster-bolt deflection in game terms> |
I think you guys are really overthinking this. I say this is just plain and simple "soak" with defection for effect. It seems that this is such a big deal because armor in Star Wars has never been shown to deflect blaster bolts, but I think what your missing is that armor has never shown what would be a soak result in the game, except for maybe Baze in his final scene in RO (but some of those could be stuns - I haven't seen it in a while). It is safe to say that soak is extremely rare among all characters in the films, including even armored characters.
This is what made me what to go back towards 1e that had no soak from normal damage (every hit was at least a stun). Several here were opposed to the concept that soak is a realistic possible outcome of some attacks in the real world, but in the films it seems to be an extremely rare occurrence for even armored characters. As a happy medium I've since wanted to go back to 1eRC where damage resistance roll doubling the damage roll is soak and stun comes from damage resistance roll greater than damage but less than double damage.
Now I'm really questioning that stormtrooper armor really even provides much protection for energy damage. I'm still ok with +2D for physical damage, but I'm thinking +1D for energy damage might really be too much because you never don't see a trooper go down from a blaster bolt. And since they aren't shown getting back up, that would mean they were incapacitated in game terms. Having stormtroopers soak blaster bolts just doesn't conform with film evidence Phasma's armor (and Baze's) may have better energy protection than normal stormtrooper armor.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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Was listening to TLJ score tonight and I have to agree with whoever said that Williams is not turning out his best work. In the past, even the inferior films had great scores. Return of the Jedi has a fantastic score. And, Williams' work on the prequel trilogy is stellar.
I have not been that happy with TFA or TLJ scores (and not RO's score, either, but that's not Williams).
They're more subdued. But, this may be a result of the film music "renaissance" that supposed to be going on in Hollywood. There's a documentary that just came out about it called Score. CLICK HERE. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I peeped TLJ Visual Dictionary at the bookstore yesterday and unfortunately, Pablo Hidalgo put Crait in the southern galaxy near Sullust, and Cantonic (the casino planet where Canto Bight is) all way in the northeast galaxy in the furtherest reaches of the Corporate Sector, because... Disney EU. |
Figures
| Quote: | | Yes, even without your posited 'projected multidirectional artificial gravity field' below the bomb hatch opening, there was artificial gravity pointed up from the rest of the bottom of the ship, likely enough that would pull on the bombs from underneath but all sides with a net result that would drop them strait "down". They appeared to fall as if there were a 1g force and artificial gravity is 1g. |
Problem solved. Per the TLJ Cross-Sections books, the bomb racks used magnetic accelerators.
| Quote: | | Rancor Pit users wrote: | | <much discussion about Phasma's armor blaster-bolt deflection in game terms> |
I think you guys are really overthinking this. I say this is just plain and simple "soak" with defection for effect. It seems that this is such a big deal because armor in Star Wars has never been shown to deflect blaster bolts, |
In all fairness, Phasma's armor does officially have a chromium exterior, and chromium has been ascribed anti-laser/blaster properties as far back as TPM.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:29 am Post subject: Re: The Implications of Doppleganger |
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| jmanski wrote: | Luke's use of Doppelganger facts:
- lot's of concentration
- no DSP
- LONG range
- makes you look younger |
And it apparently causes you to become one with the Force. We don't know that it wouldn't give a DSP, but I don't see any reason why it should if not used for an evil purpose.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | jmanski wrote: | - can touch others
- can take massive amounts of damage |
Possibly corporeal / incorporeal option, in that the Doppleganger can appear solid when it needs to, but is otherwise illusory. |
Remember, nothing physical is actual there. Just because the Force projection may be able to touch or move something, it is just the Force so there still isn't anything there to be damaged.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | SPOILER:
So this is canon now. And likely not a DSP-worthy power. |
Even without people reading the spoiler text in the Doppleganger thread, the mere presence of spoiler tagging there is announcing to those who haven't seen the film that this power is used in the movie. I think that is a major spoiler because some people watching the movie may think Luke is really there (and had just gotten a haircut and beard trim/dye) so don't realize that is going on in the film until it is overtly revealed.
So I deleted those posts in that thread and I wanted you guys to know why. We should preserve the surprise revelation of Luke only being on Crait as a Force projection/doppleganger. Please feel free to bring it back up there in January. Thanks.
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RyanDarkstar
Commander
Joined: 04 Dec 2014
Posts: 351
Location: Chambersburg, PA, USA, Earth
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:30 am Post subject: |
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I liked the movie for the most part.
It was great finally seeing Luke do/say something. I was a bit taken aback by his casual over-the-shoulder toss of his father's lightsaber. And there was the creepy milk scene. Aside from those, he was worth waiting two years for. I liked his wink to Threepio (Luke being the only one to treat him well) and his interaction with Artoo. It was also pretty funny when he was trolling Rey with "feeling the Force." Yoda's pep-talk was a welcome kick-in-the-pants to get Luke back in the mix. His power was epic at the end as he stalled Kylo and the bumbling First Order, allowing the rebels to escape.
I really enjoyed the interactions between Ben/Kylo and Rey. Her rage and his calm sincerity...it was very interesting to see their characters progress through multiple conversations through the Force. Their side-by-side fight after Snoke's death versus the Praetorian Guard was so amazing, that it was a bummer, though not surprising, that Kylo would choose power over balance. The next movie needs a villain, I suppose.
I feel Finn was wasted. The whole tangent with him and Hope really slowed down the movie, especially when it ultimately failed. This also affected Poe, as well, who looked like a dumb flyboy when his mutiny ultimately ended up costing more lives.
I was also bothered by the slow-motion chase. You'd think the First Order could have sent some ships ahead of the Resistance ships and boxed them in, unless Leia's ship could have taken them out (not sure how powerful her ship was). I did like Holdo's lightspeed kamikaze attack. It would have made more sense to have done that with the smaller capital ships first before they ran out of fuel, though it would have ruined Holdo's sacrifice.
While I liked Leia using the Force to survive decompression and exposure to space, it would have made sense for her to perish, since we lost Carrie last year. It will be interesting how JJ will tackle that problem.
I'll probably see The Last Jedi again while it's in theaters, though probably not as many times as I watched The Force Awakens (four times). It was good but not as fun.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:50 am Post subject: |
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I just spent some time thumbing through the TLJ Cross-Sections book, and here are a few things I gleaned.
The Superiority.Well, we knew it was going to be big, but dayum. Among the many, many items found on the cross-section, it has (at least) two internal bays large enough to dock a Resurgent-Class Battlecruiser, and can even be used to build one. It also has Resurgent-sized docking notches on the trailing edges of its wings. Not to mention an auditorium that can seat 200,000, yet still looks like a tiny dot on the page.
The AT-MegaCalibre6The name makes a lot more sense when you find out that MegaCalibre6 is the name of the model of turbolaser mounted above the cockpit.
The MG-100 StarFortressIt actually has three dual laser cannon turrets, one in the bomb bay, one on the tail, and one dorsal turret. It also has four forward firing laser cannon; two under the chin and one on each wingtip. It also uses magnetic accelerators to propel the proton bombs out of the bay in zero-g. Finally, the cross-section book specifically mentions that they were supposed to fly in close formation for better defensive firepower.
A few more impressions...
-I liked the Melee Combat action, getting to see multiple weapons that can go against a lightsaber (if the fighter knows what he's doing with it).
-Apparently the Raddus is an MC85, the same class as the Home One, which means DisneyLucas is finally acknowledging that that class is in the 3,300 meter range, not the laughable 1,300 meters from before. Naturally, though, they woefully undergunned it.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:53 am Post subject: Re: The Implications of Doppleganger |
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| Whill wrote: | | Remember, nothing physical is actual there. Just because the Force projection may be able to touch or move something, it is just the Force so there still isn't anything there to be damaged. |
And yet, there had to be something to it, because the image interacted with Threepio, who presumably can't be mentally manipulated into seeing or feeling something that isn't there.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:00 am Post subject: |
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Not familiar with Doppleganger, but I thought it fairly clear what happened... he created an illusion at a distance (bolstered, in game terms, by the presence of his sister and nephew/former protege), without real physical presence, but with real sense presence. That Han's dice, that he gave to Leia, fuzzed into unreality showed that.
That illusion was real enough that he was linked to it... but he was clever enough to dispel it when they started shooting at him with the knuckle-walkers (everyone else noriced that they were stylized like apes, right?).
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | Not familiar with Doppleganger, but I thought it fairly clear what happened... he created an illusion at a distance (bolstered, in game terms, by the presence of his sister and nephew/former protege), without real physical presence, but with real sense presence. That Han's dice, that he gave to Leia, fuzzed into unreality showed that. |
Doppleganger is a power from the Dark Empire Sourcebook that allows the Force user to project a realistic image over great distances. The sticking point is that it can fool droids and surveillance systems, too, so obviously it's something above and beyond Affect Mind.
The description of Doppleganger reads a lot like the description for the Shadow Illusion spell from D&D, essentially manipulating the underlying fabric of the universe to generate an illusion that is at least partly physically present.
But unless there is some way to explain how Affect Mind could work on a droid, then Doppleganger is the only possible answer we have.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I peeped TLJ Visual Dictionary at the bookstore yesterday |
| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Was listening to TLJ score tonight |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Per the TLJ Cross-Sections books, the bomb racks used magnetic accelerators. |
I'm thoroughly jealous that other people have this stuff already. I can't buy them yet because all my money is tied up in Christmas gifts for my family, and I need to have a list of things for people to get me as gifts anyway. So I have to wait to receive them for one of our 5 Christmases between 12/23 and 12/30. This is one of the reasons I really dislike Star Wars movies coming out in December. If Solo stays in May, I plan on having this stuff the day after seeing the movie (if I like it).
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | In all fairness, Phasma's armor does officially have a chromium exterior, and chromium has been ascribed anti-laser/blaster properties as far back as TPM. |
Which translates in the game to Phasma's armor having a greater resistance to energy damage. My greater point was that all non-chromium armor doesn't seem to provide much, if any, protection against energy damage in the films. This is highlighted by Phasma's armor finally showing an armored soak result!
No, I don't think Affect Mind works on droids.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | And yet, there had to be something to it, because the image interacted with Threepio, who presumably can't be mentally manipulated into seeing or feeling something that isn't there. |
| MrNexx wrote: | | Not familiar with Doppleganger, but I thought it fairly clear what happened... he created an illusion at a distance (bolstered, in game terms, by the presence of his sister and nephew/former protege), without real physical presence, but with real sense presence. That Han's dice, that he gave to Leia, fuzzed into unreality showed that. |
I never suggested the power was only visual illusion in the minds of organic beings. With telekinesis the Force can move physical objects. It seems to me that the Force can also warp light photons to create an actual image that is visible to droids. The Force can push in such a way to create a "Force field" shaped like a hand or dice, combined with the warping of light to give the Force fields a physical appearance, but that still doesn't mean that anything physical is actually there. (It seems to be similar to the effect of the holodeck on Star Trek with realistic-looking holograms with projected shaped forcefields to give the holograms some physicality for interacting with.) But the two effects would not have to be all or nothing.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | Obviously, either the casino planet was somewhere in the same sector, within a few hours, or hyperdrives are much faster in the TFA Era than in the Classic Era. |
I peeped TLJ Visual Dictionary at the bookstore yesterday and unfortunately, Pablo Hidalgo put Crait in the southern galaxy near Sullust, and Cantonic (the casino planet where Canto Bight is) all way in the northeast galaxy in the furtherest reaches of the Corporate Sector, because... Disney EU. |
Remember. It's not the actual distance that matters so much with Hyperspace travel as it is obstacles between two points.
You can have a close destination in the same sector, on a new route, that takes longer to travel than going to a destination across the galaxy on a route that is well known and well mapped. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:54 am Post subject: Re: The Implications of Doppleganger |
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| Whill wrote: | | And it apparently causes you to become one with the Force. |
Luke said that he went to that world to die. Like Kenobi, it is implied that Luke has seen his destiny--his own death. Kenobi sacrificed himself so that Luke could escape the Death Star. Luke sacrificed himself to help the Resistance escape.
As soon as Luke finished the Doppleganger effect (Force Projection, I would call it), he collapsed. Like it really took it out of him to do that.
Like doing that took so much out of him that it killed him.
Or....he was going to die anyway...and the strain killed him. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | Remember. It's not the actual distance that matters so much with Hyperspace travel as it is obstacles between two points.
You can have a close destination in the same sector, on a new route, that takes longer to travel than going to a destination across the galaxy on a route that is well known and well mapped. |
I remember. You'll remember that I am a first generation SW fan who bought the 1e RPG core book very week it hit retail in 1987. You may not remember that I am also an armchair cosmology nerd.
The greater the distance between two objects in space, the greater the odds are that there are obstacles between them. Therefore, distance should still be a factor in hyperspace travel times. No, not the only factor, but still a factor. These two star systems are literally dozens of thousands of light years away from each other, on opposite ends of the galaxy from each other.
Fortunately both of the systems are relatively close to the major galactic hyperroute Hydian Way, which I'm sure was by design. But if you are a SW publication author on the story canon team and have the power to just handwave system locations anywhere in the galaxy for a map, and the goal is to conform to what is shown in films, you should not put two systems that the movie shows an extremely short hyperspace journey for on nearly opposite ends of the galaxy from each other. Just saying.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:08 am Post subject: Re: The Implications of Doppleganger |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | And it apparently causes you to become one with the Force. |
Luke said that he went to that world to die. Like Kenobi, it is implied that Luke has seen his destiny--his own death. Kenobi sacrificed himself so that Luke could escape the Death Star. Luke sacrificed himself to help the Resistance escape.
As soon as Luke finished the Doppleganger effect (Force Projection, I would call it), he collapsed. Like it really took it out of him to do that.
Like doing that took so much out of him that it killed him. |
I agree.
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