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Kytross
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 Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:50 am Post subject: |
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I watched the Mary Sue video. It is probably the best explanation of the Mary Sue phenomenon I've seen. He certainly makes the case for Rey being a Mary Sue, though his argument is against Mary Sues in general, not just Star Wars.
It is a political channel, he is first and foremost making a political argument. |
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TauntaunScout
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Joined: 20 Apr 2015
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Why does Rian Johnson want someone to remake his movie? I feel like I am reading past something.
Not clicking that video link in a million years. There's plenty wrong with the sequel trilogy but Rey's abilities never even raised an eyebrow for me. She's no more inexplicably capable than a lot of Star Wars characters. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Kytross wrote: | I watched the Mary Sue video. It is probably the best explanation of the Mary Sue phenomenon I've seen. He certainly makes the case for Rey being a Mary Sue, though his argument is against Mary Sues in general, not just Star Wars.
It is a political channel, he is first and foremost making a political argument. |
True, but that doesn't negate what he was ultimately trying to say.
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Sutehp
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Joined: 01 Nov 2016
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Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Kytross wrote: | I watched the Mary Sue video. It is probably the best explanation of the Mary Sue phenomenon I've seen. He certainly makes the case for Rey being a Mary Sue, though his argument is against Mary Sues in general, not just Star Wars.
It is a political channel, he is first and foremost making a political argument. |
True, but that doesn't negate what he was ultimately trying to say. |
True as you tell it, garhkal; whether or not his argument has merit is a different question from whether or not the guy is credible. All the same, even a meritorious argument will still fall flat if the guy saying it is thought to be a liar or a fool. That's why lawyers attack the credibility of the other side's witnesses.
As for this video, like TauntaunScout, I'm not about to give this right-winger my clicks. As a result, I'm in no position to weigh in on his Mary Sue argument for one side or the other. (Besides, I gotta get ready for MAGFest tomorrow. I'm gonna get my Swashbuckler to Level 7 on Sunday!)
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | These YouTube videos are just fans with opinions on the internet like we are, so citing where you got the idea of your post is not always necessary. |
In this case, I wanted to distinguish the point from click-bait rumors, so I decided to include the source, along with a warning that the source had its own very obvious biases
| Quote: | | I feel the most important part of this tweet is the first three sentences. It isn't surprising, but this confirms the Story Group is subservient to the filmmakers. They provide notes that may or nay not be heeded. |
Which is worrisome on many levels. But what stands out to me is the critique of JJ Abrams. As you said above, this means JJ knew in advance - in general, at least - how Luke was going to be portrayed in TLJ, yet still chose to end his film with the optics of Luke standing there in full "Jedi regalia." As though having that visual in his film was more important than what it would do to the overall story arc of the trilogy. For me, it's somewhat on par with the physics of Starkiller Base, that it was more important to show a beam of energy creeping across the sky in real time from thousands of lightyears away than it was to not blow suspension of disbelief out of the water. Still not a fan of Johnson, but this is another brick in the wall for JJ Abrams.
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Solo4114
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Joined: 18 May 2017
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| If the video accepts that Anakin and Luke are both "Gary Stus" then I'm fine with calling out Rey as a "Mary Sue." Otherwise, I ain't interested. |
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Sutehp
Commodore
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Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | But what stands out to me is the critique of JJ Abrams. As you said above, this means JJ knew in advance - in general, at least - how Luke was going to be portrayed in TLJ, yet still chose to end his film with the optics of Luke standing there in full "Jedi regalia." As though having that visual in his film was more important than what it would do to the overall story arc of the trilogy. For me, it's somewhat on par with the physics of Starkiller Base, that it was more important to show a beam of energy creeping across the sky in real time from thousands of lightyears away than it was to not blow suspension of disbelief out of the water. Still not a fan of Johnson, but this is another brick in the wall for JJ Abrams. |
This. A million times this. It's like Abrams cares more about wowing the audience with special effects and cool visuals than he does about telling a story that makes sense (or at least doesn't launch a nuke at the suspension of disbelief). I hate to sound like a broken record, but it's this same reason that I despised Star Trek 2009 for so long. It took Neil deGrasse Tyson himself saying that maybe black holes theoretically can be conduits between universes to redeem Star Trek 2009 for me. I don't expect any such rescue for the Star Wars sequel trilogy. And that makes me sad because, while I'm a fan of both franchises, I'm a (slightly) bigger fan of Star Wars than Star Trek.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | In this case, I wanted to distinguish the point from click-bait rumors, so I decided to include the source, along with a warning that the source had its own very obvious biases |
As for the deleted story group tweet video, my screenshot of the paused YouTube video and text about it serves the same purpose with the same credibility level, without revealing the YouTube channel. The guy had a long list of tweets with some replies filtered out and some not. The only way I know to do that is manually creating a document with selected tweets. If someone could go to the trouble of doing that they could have photoshopped a fake tweet and put it in a video or a still image like I shared. I'm not saying this was faked (I feel it is very likely a real deleted tweet), but I'm just saying that sharing the actual video it came from doesn't add any factor of reliability in this case. But I do appreciate the thought of trying to avoid click-bait!
As a minor side note, I forgot to mention in my prior reply about this that the context was removed from deleted tweet. The narrator briefly stated what the replies were about that lead to this deleted tweet, but I would have liked to have seen them too.
As for the Mary Sue video, that's not click bait news. This is an omnipresent rant repeated all over the internet ad nauseam. It has been discussed here a lot already, so any new groundbreaking arguments on this matter could have just been shared in text summary or bullet points.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | As you said above, this means JJ knew in advance - in general, at least - how Luke was going to be portrayed in TLJ, yet still chose to end his film with the optics of Luke standing there in full "Jedi regalia." As though having that visual in his film was more important than what it would do to the overall story arc of the trilogy. |
Although it certainly is possible, I didn't state that Abrams knew what Johnson was doing with Luke. In their descriptions of sharing ideas and Johnson asking Abrams for changes to TFA, it was never stated what those specific things were. The Jedi robes thing was just my speculation of one thing that Johnson likely Abrams because we know that he did ask for some things that were denied and it just doesn't make any sense for Johnson's Luke to be wearing them. It's an educated guess, like Kylo Ben's scar. If those were both things that Abrams denied changing, Johnson dealt with them in two different ways (Show Luke change out of the Jedi robes first chance he got, and ignore the original location of the scar).
I feel it is a safe conclusion that Johnson knew more in general about TFA than Abrams knew about TLJ because regardless of which first draft was written first, both stories evolved over time and TFA was produced first, so shooting script through everything else done on the films was done by TFA first.
| Sutehp wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | For me, it's somewhat on par with the physics of Starkiller Base, that it was more important to show a beam of energy creeping across the sky in real time from thousands of lightyears away than it was to not blow suspension of disbelief out of the water.Still not a fan of Johnson, but this is another brick in the wall for JJ Abrams. |
This. A million times this. It's like Abrams cares more about wowing the audience with special effects and cool visuals than he does about telling a story that makes sense (or at least doesn't launch a nuke at the suspension of disbelief). I hate to sound like a broken record, but it's this same reason that I despised Star Trek 2009 for so long. It took Neil deGrasse Tyson himself saying that maybe black holes theoretically can be conduits between universes to redeem Star Trek 2009 for me. I don't expect any such rescue for the Star Wars sequel trilogy. And that makes me sad because, while I'm a fan of both franchises, I'm a (slightly) bigger fan of Star Wars than Star Trek. |
Deja vu. The three of us and others have already had this discussion here on this site. I'm going to break the chain.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Please avoid politics and religion, including anti-religion, including posting links to content of this nature. |
| Kytross wrote: | | I watched the Mary Sue video... |
| garhkal wrote: | | He sounds rather monotonous. |
| Kytross wrote: | ...He certainly makes the case for Rey being a Mary Sue, though his argument is against Mary Sues in general, not just Star Wars.
It is a political channel, he is first and foremost making a political argument. |
| garhkal wrote: | | True, but that doesn't negate what he was ultimately trying to say. |
True, but political arguments should not be shared here. Ugh, I guess I now have to watch the Mary Sue video too.
Let us please not share videos from political channels or websites, even if they are talking about Star Wars. It is an absolute imperative to not share anything making political arguments, even if it is about Star Wars.
Thank you all for keeping the discussion here about Star Wars.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Not clicking that video link in a million years. There's plenty wrong with the sequel trilogy but Rey's abilities never even raised an eyebrow for me. She's no more inexplicably capable than a lot of Star Wars characters. |
| Sutehp wrote: | | As for this video, like TauntaunScout, I'm not about to give this right-winger my clicks. As a result, I'm in no position to weigh in on his Mary Sue argument for one side or the other. (Besides, I gotta get ready for MAGFest tomorrow. I'm gonna get my Swashbuckler to Level 7 on Sunday!) |
Have fun!
| Solo4114 wrote: | | If the video accepts that Anakin and Luke are both "Gary Stus" then I'm fine with calling out Rey as a "Mary Sue." Otherwise, I ain't interested. |
Don't forget Mara Jade. A lot of the same people who call Rey a Mary Sue are disgruntled that "Mara Sue" is no longer canon. Hypocrite much? When I spoke with Timothy Zahn on-on-one for 10 minutes, I thought about bringing that up. But you know why I didn't? Because I'm not a jerk fan.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Why does Rian Johnson want someone to remake his movie? I feel like I am reading past something. |
I briefly did Twitter but abandoned it due to the excessive negativity, including to Rian Johnson who I followed. I presume this is in reference to Rian Johnson getting so much crap from a very vocal minority of fans that he actually publicly replied to a fan speaking of a "movement" to create a "fixed" version of the film that addressed all the major fan complaints. I saw it as a way of him saying 'Don't like it? Fine! Make your own TLJ then!' Any fan edit that comes out after his official canon version has no effect on him. He already made his very successful movie and got paid for it. He also got a future job to lead a new trilogy out of it. Why would he care what fans do to make themselves happy with TLJ after-the-fact, you know?
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CRMcNeill
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Why does Rian Johnson want someone to remake his movie? I feel like I am reading past something. |
Where did it say that? That wasn't the read I got from it at all. I know there is a fan-driven petition to re-do TLJ, but that's never going to happen.
| Quote: | | Not clicking that video link in a million years. There's plenty wrong with the sequel trilogy but Rey's abilities never even raised an eyebrow for me. She's no more inexplicably capable than a lot of Star Wars characters. |
That's the point the video makes, that the capabilities she has do not seem to have been earned or learned in any way; they're just there. Even Anakin, for all of his immense natural potential and messianic virgin-birth back story, still requires years of training to fully make use of his Force abilities.
It makes the point that, while Kylo Ren was a student of Luke's, who (per TLJ) actually neutralized Luke temporarily (as distinct from a true defeat) before destroying the Jedi Academy and then spending years under Snoke's tutelage, he suddenly and strangely gets beaten by a girl with no formal training who just happens across Luke's lightsaber on very first trip off the planet where she's lived her entire life.
Stack that with various quotes from Disney/Lucasfilm insiders to the effect that they are pushing a "you don't have to be special to be heroic" theme (which, IMO, is evidenced by Finn and Rose), as well as Daisy Ridley herself saying she thinks "Rey has no weaknesses." The content creator makes the valid point that heroic and sympathetic characters need weaknesses, as this is part of what makes a character compelling to the audience. For all his power, Anakin still had obvious flaws that, in many ways, drove the entire plot of the prequels, as do Luke's flaws in the OT. Rey, OTOH, appears to have been deliberately written either without flaws or with flaws that are inconsequential.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Solo4114 wrote: | | If the video accepts that Anakin and Luke are both "Gary Stus" then I'm fine with calling out Rey as a "Mary Sue." Otherwise, I ain't interested. |
It does address how Anakin and Luke do have some of the aspects of a Gary Stu, but lack the central criteria mentioned in the linked post. In effect, Anakin and Luke are the precedent-setters for the universe. It's been known since very early on that Luke and Anakin were special, with abilities far above and beyond the norm, yet both bring their own flaws to the table, and both require training to fully master their abilities. Rey, in turn, breaks with that precedent by just being naturally good at practically anything she tries to do. In effect, Anakin and Luke establish the rules of the universe by conforming to them in spite of their exceptional power. Rey, in turn, meets the core criteria of a Mary Sue by breaking those rules.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
That's the point the video makes, that the capabilities she has do not seem to have been earned or learned in any way; they're just there. Even Anakin, for all of his immense natural potential and messianic virgin-birth back story, still requires years of training to fully make use of his Force abilities.
It makes the point that, while Kylo Ren was a student of Luke's, who (per TLJ) actually neutralized Luke temporarily (as distinct from a true defeat) before destroying the Jedi Academy and then spending years under Snoke's tutelage, he suddenly and strangely gets beaten by a girl with no formal training who just happens across Luke's lightsaber on very first trip off the planet where she's lived her entire life. | Solo4114 wrote: | | If the video accepts that Anakin and Luke are both "Gary Stus" then I'm fine with calling out Rey as a "Mary Sue." Otherwise, I ain't interested. |
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That was the biggest think i actually liked about what was said in that video.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Do not share links to pages with political content... If you do not value diversity and social justice, please keep it to yourself. |
https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=186016#186016
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | So, I'm at a bit of a loss as to where to put this, but here goes... |
Not on the Rancor Pit...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I was watching this video regarding Mary Sue characters in modern fiction. While Star Wars is cited for several examples, the premise is focused more on the general concept within film and literature. Bear in mind, this video looks at Mary Sues as something particularly common in SJW literature, and the narrator clearly takes a dim view of social justice, so consider yourself warned. |
When my eyes originally glazed over reading this build-up to the umpteenth time of Rey being called a Mary Sue, I missed some of this text. We've been through this, dude. "SJW" is a derogatory term and it is not acceptable to use that term on this website. I began to watch the video and his very first sentence began, "Ever since Social Justice decided to disgrace the stage with its terrible everything..."
How often do I talk about my social justice activism? <-- That was the first time I ever even alluded to that here publicly in over 5000 posts total, and in over a year of being the site owner. Almost all Rancor Pit users (of all political leanings) do not want any politics here. The Rancor Pit should be politics free. Don't like social justice or social justice warriors? Don't even bring it up in the first place. It seems I've been just a friendly little snowflake-admin all this time, so I guess it is time to get cold as ice now.
This applies to everyone of all political persuasions:
1. Do not discuss politics or share any political views on the Rancor Pit. Period.
2. Do not state or allude to Star Wars having a political agenda, with or without stating what that particular agenda is.
3. Do not post links to any political content, whether it be in videos, channels, or pages. Posting warnings with it do not make it acceptable.
4. Do not ever write the terms SJW or SJWs on this website. Period.
5. Do not ever disparage Social Justice here. Period.
6. Do not post links to web pages that use the term SJW or disparage Social Justice.
7. Going forward, do not ever share anything from Literature Devil. His content is now permanently barred from this website. (Reasons? See 1-6 above.)
Violating these things can lead to warnings and/or temporary bans at the discretion of the staff, and permanent bans at my discretion for repeat offenders. I don't think I'm asking for much here. It should be very easy to simply.not.go.there.
Let's please keep the Rancor Pit a politics-free zone!
| Site Admin wrote: | | Please do not test the tolerance and post something against any of the guidelines just to see if it will fly. These guidelines are here to empower you to self-moderate. |
I don't have time to watch all these videos and moderate the site for political content. Please self-moderate. Thank you!
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | TauntaunScout wrote: | | Why does Rian Johnson want someone to remake his movie? |
I know there is a fan-driven petition to re-do TLJ, but that's never going to happen. |
https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/1009848399858843649
This is what I thought TS was talking about. I first posted about it at the top of page 10 of this thread.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | a strong case for Rey as a Mary Sue. He boils down the concept of Mary Sue to a single core aspect:Regular characters conform to the laws of their universe, while Mary Sues force the laws of the universe to conform to their character. He then goes on to point out that, while Anakin has many of the same qualities of a stereotypical Mary Sue, he diverges from the above requirement in that, even as powerful as he is, he still has flaws, still requires training to fully make use of his natural potential, etc. Rey, on the other hand, has been intentionally written as a character without weaknesses, whose abilities are simply given to her without seeming effort, in clear defiance of the laws of the Star Wars universe. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | That's the point the video makes, that the capabilities she has do not seem to have been earned or learned in any way; they're just there. Even Anakin, for all of his immense natural potential and messianic virgin-birth back story, still requires years of training to fully make use of his Force abilities.
It makes the point that, while Kylo Ren was a student of Luke's, who (per TLJ) actually neutralized Luke temporarily (as distinct from a true defeat) before destroying the Jedi Academy and then spending years under Snoke's tutelage, he suddenly and strangely gets beaten by a girl with no formal training who just happens across Luke's lightsaber on very first trip off the planet where she's lived her entire life.
Stack that with various quotes from Disney/Lucasfilm insiders to the effect that they are pushing a "you don't have to be special to be heroic" theme (which, IMO, is evidenced by Finn and Rose), as well as Daisy Ridley herself saying she thinks "Rey has no weaknesses." The content creator makes the valid point that heroic and sympathetic characters need weaknesses, as this is part of what makes a character compelling to the audience. For all his power, Anakin still had obvious flaws that, in many ways, drove the entire plot of the prequels, as do Luke's flaws in the OT. Rey, OTOH, appears to have been deliberately written either without flaws or with flaws that are inconsequential. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | It does address how Anakin and Luke do have some of the aspects of a Gary Stu, but lack the central criteria mentioned in the linked post. In effect, Anakin and Luke are the precedent-setters for the universe. It's been known since very early on that Luke and Anakin were special, with abilities far above and beyond the norm, yet both bring their own flaws to the table, and both require training to fully master their abilities. Rey, in turn, breaks with that precedent by just being naturally good at practically anything she tries to do. In effect, Anakin and Luke establish the rules of the universe by conforming to them in spite of their exceptional power. Rey, in turn, meets the core criteria of a Mary Sue by breaking those rules. |
You are totally taking Daisy Ridley's words out of context, but I suspect you are only hearing about this secondhand from someone who is intentionally twisting her words towards their bash. Daisy Ridley's RL worldview includes no humans having character "weaknesses". She said flowery stuff to the effect of, 'They aren't weaknesses, They are opportunities for growth.' In other words, she takes issue with the words "weakness" and "flaw" being used to describe any people so much that she even applies that to discussing human fictional characters. Daisy Ridley never meant that Rey doesn't actually have any weaknesses and character flaws from a literary perspective. This citation debunked.
Rey has flaws. In Rey was perfect, how was she an undernourished lowly scavenger struggling to eat one-quarter portions? In TFA, Rey's grief of abandonment holds her back, driving a 19 year-old abandoned as a small child to keep wanting to return to that nasty junk pile Jakku in a delusional belief that her family will return some day. The Hero's Journey cycle has the rejection of the call to adventure, and Rey has it as Luke did, but Rey's rejection is much more severe. Luke's was, 'I hate the Empire but I can't get involved because I have farm work to do, so I'll drive you to Anchorhead.' Rey had Anakin Skywalker's lightsaber call to her and give her an intense vision, but Rey cries saying she will never touch that thing again and runs off into the woods, afraid. She fears Kylo Ren and can't stop being frozen by him. Perfect and no flaws? Pfft.
In TLJ, Rey's obsession with her parents continues and she stupidly enters a big Dark Side hole in the ground, according to Luke risking her life and/or soul in the process. Luke felt she answered the call to the Dark Side too easily. She fails to get more than basic training from Luke. She fails in her mission to get Luke to return to the Resistance with her (Yoda has to step in and do that). She mistakenly puts her faith into converting Kylo Ren back to the good side, failing to see that it was all a trap set up by Snoke. She falls for getting smacked in the head by her own lightsaber! She fails to get her lightsaber from Kylo and it breaks in two. Fail, fail, fail. Mary Sues don't cry because they don't have anything to cry about. Rey has things to cry about. Not inconsequential things. Rey has no flaws? Debunked.
"There's been an awakening. Have you felt it?" Yes, some things Rey does are unprecedented in Star Wars. But it is new Star Wars. The Prequels had plenty of unprecedented aspects of the Force for Star Wars at the time. Fans are artificially holding the standards of the old to the new as if the movies can't do new things with the Force and whatever. Now we've got Rey's Mysterious Force Awakening, Force Ghosts summoning lightning, and unprecedented super weapons too.
Of course fans don't have to like the new. If Rey doing things without training is unacceptable for fans then that's that. Be the grumpy kid saying "No No No, Not my Star Wars" if you want. I admit I feel that way about some aspects of TLJ, like no lightsaber duels. But I acknowledge that is my standard of the past being held to judge new Star Wars by. This whole 'Rey is a Mary Sue' thing is just fans who don't like Rey or the new films trying to argue and establish objective criteria to support their view. You don't need that to not like something. If you don't like it, then just don't like it. If it doesn't work for you, fine. Your SW preferences for yourself are valid without the support of other fans and videos.
And again, I caution everyone to keep in mind that, the trilogy isn't over yet. Maybe there will be an explanation provided as to why Rey can do what she does without much training. Maybe you'll accept the explanation, maybe you won't. But we won't know until we have it. I feel fans are just being impatient. I had to wait three years to find out if Vader was telling Luke the truth on Cloud City or not. We now have less than a year for Episode IX.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Well said, Whill!
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