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Full dodge on multi-crew ships?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Jollyone wrote:
As for speed I think some of the larger ships are faster than most all but modified transports. A few are as fast as some rebel starfighters, as in space 6 is common. There are a few in the 8 range and I think some patrol in 100-150m range that move 9. Maneuver is not as clear, most are 1D few hit the 2D range.

So as you frame it then how does a YT-1300 with worse speed and maneuver dodge? Not trying to incite just asking.


That is a good question, WHy say can a stock Ghtroc, who has just as poor a maneuverabilty as several ISD size ships and is SLOWER to boot get a full dodge while those larger ships cant? I honestly don't know the answer.


Scale seems to be the answer here. The time it takes to fire a weapon vs the time it takes to maneuver a ship. Like, think about the death star: that thing takes quite a while to power up, so a capitol ship might be able to get things moving in time to not be where the weapon was aimed by the time it fires. A planet, however, cannot, despite it's actual speed around it's star being thousands of miles per hour: the relative size (and gravitational effects, etc, etc) render the planet effectively terrain for the purposes of the battle... it is effectively a stationary target because of it's relationship to the death star, vs the absolute value of its mobility.

Likewise, the speed of a capitol ship only matters relative to the ships it's engaged with. It's speed stat may be 6 or 8 or 2 or whatever, but what matters is how fast it is moving during the fight. Also, the amount of space required to change direction means that such changes take a long time relative to a smaller ship's (or turret gun's) ability to fire a shot at it. In many cases, it's as simple as "pulling the trigger" and the shot is fired. Whereas a capitol ship would certainly experience a delay between the pilot's evasive input and the ship's response. Or else the pilot may have to reroute power to make a sharp turn or what have you... thus taking time to make the "dodge."

That's my best guess.
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Straxus
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:


Likewise, the speed of a capitol ship only matters relative to the ships it's engaged with. It's speed stat may be 6 or 8 or 2 or whatever, but what matters is how fast it is moving during the fight. Also, the amount of space required to change direction means that such changes take a long time relative to a smaller ship's (or turret gun's) ability to fire a shot at it. In many cases, it's as simple as "pulling the trigger" and the shot is fired. Whereas a capitol ship would certainly experience a delay between the pilot's evasive input and the ship's response. Or else the pilot may have to reroute power to make a sharp turn or what have you... thus taking time to make the "dodge."

That's my best guess.


Isn't this reflected in the RAW scale rules? Bigger scale targets have more difficulty dodging smaller craft (or rather, the smaller craft get + to hit), but + to resist damage.

As for the question in the op, I think giving the gunner(s) higher difficulty based on the piloting roll is a nice solution. I think I would only give this penalty on a "Full dodge" though. You could give other tasks, like sensor, shields etc higher diff as well, based on that it is harder to concentrate/stay still when the ship is maneuvering hard.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Straxus wrote:


Isn't this reflected in the RAW scale rules? Bigger scale targets have more difficulty dodging smaller craft (or rather, the smaller craft get + to hit), but + to resist damage.

As for the question in the op, I think giving the gunner(s) higher difficulty based on the piloting roll is a nice solution. I think I would only give this penalty on a "Full dodge" though. You could give other tasks, like sensor, shields etc higher diff as well, based on that it is harder to concentrate/stay still when the ship is maneuvering hard.
I sometimes struggle to write text messages on my phone when I'm on the bus, if it's a bumpy road... Smile


Yes it is, but, no it isn't. The "scale" modifier is class-based, and capitol ships are like the "super heavy weight" class. Once you get above a certain size, there are no more steps in the scale. A super star destroyer is the same "scale" as a mon calamari cruiser.

It is my opinion that capitol ships absolutely cannot dodge shots from lower scale ships--especially considering the range at which those shots are being fired: the laser blast may only have to travel dozens of meters (possibly hundreds), while the capitol ship pilot is trying to move a hulking hunk of metal that is (potentially) thousands of meters long out of the way. For that matter, there would be dozens (if not hundreds) of fighters all shooting at it at the same time in different locations. Are we to assume that the capitol ship pilot can just do a barrel roll and make it all go away?

As far as I'm concerned, it's just not possible, and even if it were, it's just not practical: the shields and turret defense systems are there for that reason.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
For that matter, there would be dozens (if not hundreds) of fighters all shooting at it at the same time in different locations. Are we to assume that the capitol ship pilot can just do a barrel roll and make it all go away?
In support of just using the RAW, the "evasion" is simply making the capital ship a more difficult target. It isn't really dodging individual blasts. Evasive maneuvering effects all attackers equally. If there are multiple attackers than the rules already allow them to combine actions to get the benefit of multiple attacks and attack directions. Also a miss need not mean that a big ship dodged away from a small ship, but that the motion of the large ship caused the small ship to swerve or veer to avoid a collision or to get back on target which cause the smaller ship's shot to move off target and therefore to miss.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ideally, a Scale System would not just mean big vs. small, but also slow vs. fast. Bigger ships should be slower to maneuver, to fire, and to accelerate and decelerate, but should be extremely tough and well-armed to compensate for the sluggishness. That was what I was going for by splitting Capital Ship into Frigate, Destroyer and Dreadnought, while giving the larger ships a mix of heavy and light weaponry. An additional step would be to reduce the fire rates of capital ship weaponry, say, 1 for Frigate Scale and 1/2 for Destroyer Scale. This would allow gradual changes in course and acceleration over the course of 1 or 2 rounds to throw off an attacker's firing solution, and thus qualifying as a Dodge against weaponry of the same scale.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Naaman wrote:
For that matter, there would be dozens (if not hundreds) of fighters all shooting at it at the same time in different locations. Are we to assume that the capitol ship pilot can just do a barrel roll and make it all go away?
In support of just using the RAW, the "evasion" is simply making the capital ship a more difficult target. It isn't really dodging individual blasts. Evasive maneuvering effects all attackers equally. If there are multiple attackers than the rules already allow them to combine actions to get the benefit of multiple attacks and attack directions. Also a miss need not mean that a big ship dodged away from a small ship, but that the motion of the large ship caused the small ship to swerve or veer to avoid a collision or to get back on target which cause the smaller ship's shot to move off target and therefore to miss.


Well said. I suppose it depends on how abstract you want the game to be.
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Straxus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Once you get above a certain size, there are no more steps in the scale. A super star destroyer is the same "scale" as a mon calamari cruiser.


Fair point. You could of course add additional levels of scale (like CRMcNeill mentions), or simply rule that when the size differences reach a certain point, dodging and damage resistance are pointless.

Still, the scale system makes bigger targets easier to hit and harder to damage, and smaller targets more difficult to hit and easier to damage. From there it's just a question of finding the right balance for you between simplicity and realism...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Ideally, a Scale System would not just mean big vs. small, but also slow vs. fast. Bigger ships should be slower to maneuver, to fire, and to accelerate and decelerate, but should be extremely tough and well-armed to compensate for the sluggishness. That was what I was going for by splitting Capital Ship into Frigate, Destroyer and Dreadnought, while giving the larger ships a mix of heavy and light weaponry. An additional step would be to reduce the fire rates of capital ship weaponry, say, 1 for Frigate Scale and 1/2 for Destroyer Scale. This would allow gradual changes in course and acceleration over the course of 1 or 2 rounds to throw off an attacker's firing solution, and thus qualifying as a Dodge against weaponry of the same scale.

In fact, I think I'm going to go back and add lower Fire Rates to the Frigate- and Destroyer-Scale weapons in my stats to represent this. I've been watching some World of Warships videos, and the low fire rate of heavier guns is a major factor, but so is plotting an evasive course and angling the ship to maximize armor deflection.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Straxus wrote:
Naaman wrote:
Once you get above a certain size, there are no more steps in the scale. A super star destroyer is the same "scale" as a mon calamari cruiser.


Fair point. You could of course add additional levels of scale (like CRMcNeill mentions), or simply rule that when the size differences reach a certain point, dodging and damage resistance are pointless.

Still, the scale system makes bigger targets easier to hit and harder to damage, and smaller targets more difficult to hit and easier to damage. From there it's just a question of finding the right balance for you between simplicity and realism...


Agreed. For what it's worth, I've never played in a game where the GM rolled capitol ship piloting as a reaction against a fighter/space transport gunnery roll.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

Agreed. For what it's worth, I've never played in a game where the GM rolled capitol ship piloting as a reaction against a fighter/space transport gunnery roll.


Strange, i've always rolled..
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jollyone wrote:
Interesting, I look at it as more like WWII for all of Star Wars. The Starfighter scale are planes, transports are big cargo planes or very small boats thinking PT 109 size, capital are ships. I would think most ships did an anti-torpedo dance and they did frequent changes of direction while using main guns on other ships. Maybe to much time on History channel type gun cameras and old footage.

I have not done a capital engagement for my boys, other than they ran/jumped away. Have done some as a player in a short-lived Far Star type campaign but I think he was using new FFG rules? I have done some theory hammer stuff for few decades, the reason I am here to share those thoughts, just wish I had found this site earlier.


There is no torpedoe equivalent to WW2 in SW. Torbedoes are extreme close range weapons that hit disprectly. Also, if more torpedo-like torpedoes were in the game the would be target seeking.
I once made rules for torpedoes that made them more like today's torpedoes. Being launched from far away and homing in on the target.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
There is no torpedoe equivalent to WW2 in SW. Torbedoes are extreme close range weapons that hit disprectly. Also, if more torpedo-like torpedoes were in the game the would be target seeking.
I once made rules for torpedoes that made them more like today's torpedoes. Being launched from far away and homing in on the target.

I’d like to see what you came up with for that. I made my own version that’s basically a Capital-Scale Proton Torpedo that could be carried on an external hard point of a larger fighter. I also made it so that the Y-Wing was the only Fighter in the Alliance arsenal that could carry it. It had little homing capacity, so it had to be carried into close range before launch, and could be shot down by point defenses, but inflicted serious damage if it hit.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
There is no torpedoe equivalent to WW2 in SW. Torbedoes are extreme close range weapons that hit disprectly. Also, if more torpedo-like torpedoes were in the game the would be target seeking.
I once made rules for torpedoes that made them more like today's torpedoes. Being launched from far away and homing in on the target.
The capital scale concussion missiles on the Corellian Gunship always seemed equivalent to the sort of WWII torpedoes carried by submarines and destroyers.

Quote:
4 Concussion Missile Tubes
Fire Arc: 2 front, 2 back
Crew: 3
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Space Range: 2-12/30/60
Atmosphere Range: 200-1.2/3/6 km
Damage: 9D
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Jollyone
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to see both of the house rule torpedoes. Have seen some great stuff here. A lot of hardwork and thought, thank you all to the minds behind them.

As for capital ship dodge, scale seems to have some merit.

I will say the original basis of how Mr Lucas saw the SW universe fighting in space was WWII inspired. There are numerous types of torpedoes then, air-launched, surface launch and submersible launched. So I think that meshes well with the ship combat in SW. The ranges are not that short I think, 5000+ yards was a reasonable range and there were settings on the torpedo for 9k and 10k launches. Those are torpedoes from prior to WWII the ones at the end could be controlled after launch (wire), or set to zig zag (program), or type of proximity fuze, think magnetic or mine type. The first PT boats in the USA had 16,000-yard range. If you look at the ranges of main guns, say in 4 to 6 inch range to cover the big runs on most ships, save the battleship/heavy cruiser range. They compare well.

With above statement and quick google search, watch or read some WWII battles. Pacific is easier/closer for what I think SW is, the carrier use and the Yamato, biggest ever battleship in Battle of Samar. I think you will find many ships with many misses. I will say they are not ISD, and 1600m long. I do think a strong reason for maybe frigate scale could dodge other frigate or larger scale.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, here's my version of an Anti-Ship Torpedo.

I agree with you that the Pacific War is probably the best real-world analogy to the what a space war looks like in the SWU, and I've pulled a lot of ideas and concepts out of it over the years.
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