The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Old Republic vs Rise of the Empire and beyond...
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Planets, Locations, Eras, and Settings -> Old Republic vs Rise of the Empire and beyond... Goto page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mamatried
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 943
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:57 am    Post subject: Old Republic vs Rise of the Empire and beyond... Reply with quote

I am wonder how significant is the development in technology between the ages.
Looking over some of the ships, I wonder that other being somewhat undergunned, are they technologically inferior, and how much.

Hyperdrives can be swapped out, so can sublight drives.

Seems some of the hull design concepts were good enough to survive the ages...as hammerhead designs etc.

So would a ship like the harrower class destroyer be a threat if it found it self in the rebellion age or clone wars era.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zarn
Captain
Captain


Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Posts: 703

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In WEG Star Wars (d6), there's little difference. There's no obsolescence rules, but there are some items that are archaic in design. One example is lightsabers with a power flexcord and either a backpack-style power source, or a large lunchbox-size power source in the belt. They do excellent damage, however. http://d6holocron.com/wiki/index.php?title=Archaic_Lightsaber

There's also the skill Archaic Starship Piloting, which sees occasional use. One example is the Delaya courier, http://d6holocron.com/wiki/index.php?title=Delaya_Courier_Ship . It has a nice Hull rating and a good Space rating even if it was originally used in the Old Republic. Another might be a Sith Interceptor, http://d6holocron.com/wiki/index.php?title=Sith_Interceptor

However, older ships usually have deplorable Hyperdrive multipliers, and are somewhat undergunned - as well as usually having a higher Crew compliment than newer ships. They're good enough that they're occasionally retrofitted rather than being sent right to the breakers, though.

In the Star Wars Saga book Starships of the Galaxy, four templates were included - the junker, archaic, prototype, and advanced ships. These were intended to be slapped on any ship, to represent a particularly bad or good (or old) or fully upgraded version of that class of ship.

For that system, an Archaic ship has only half its normal damage threshold against modern weapons, there's a 50% chance that shields may fail when stressed, weaponry can't score critical hits against nonarchaic vessels, and there's a to-hit penalty for an archaic vessel (to reflect the advances in baffling and so on that makes it difficult to track modern vessels).

In d6, there's various ways one might simulate this. One would be to let the archaic ship simply count as one class smaller when it comes to damage and damage resistance (while keeping to-hit as it is). This would be a fairly significant disadvantage - but wouldn't necessairly make archaic ships useless. You could also just introduce some blanket penalty (like 1D or 2D) to everything to represent old and decrepit systems.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mamatried
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 943
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

how old is archaic? 100 Years? 500? 1000? more than one thousand years?
In the old republic some "designs" were kept in service for more than the above, like the hammerhead cruiser, served off and on over 1500 year timespan, naturally modified and the like to fit in the ages.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1452

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tech in the Old Republic stories, in the online game and in the comics and novels (even in D6 Star Wars through the Tales of the Jedi sourcebook) isn't that far off from that seen in ANH.

In my estimation, SW tech crawls, because the tech from 10,000 years ago isn't that much different from that shown in ANH.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mamatried
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 943
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
The tech in the Old Republic stories, in the online game and in the comics and novels (even in D6 Star Wars through the Tales of the Jedi sourcebook) isn't that far off from that seen in ANH.

In my estimation, SW tech crawls, because the tech from 10,000 years ago isn't that much different from that shown in ANH.


I am sort of thinking that some technology reached the limit, and was no longer
researched in the same way, but rather refined or "tuned".

if we look at the lightsaber, as we know it, that is after the proto-saber, we see little or no development, we do see adjustments, customizations, but nothing even remotely like removing a powerbox and cord.

This also makes me wonder why some of star wars tech seems at best very outdated even by earth ww2 standards.

Lets look at starship weapons, why can these in THAT level of technology be automated and fired from a gunwell operated by 1 to X gunners located in the tower, this is common in today's earth warships, with some of the bigger guns being the exception, like the (no longer in service) battleships.

we also see on earth a various degree of technology, were some forces seems almost space age and others seems more ancient.

Like USA vs Iraq....equipment wise this was 2000s vs 1960-70s
We also see this in Star Wars, it is one the unique aspects of the franchise, the "used future" things in the future being old and rusty as compared to trek, wehe it is all factory fresh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 12308
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
how old is archaic? 100 Years? 500? 1000? more than one thousand years?
In the old republic some "designs" were kept in service for more than the above, like the hammerhead cruiser, served off and on over 1500 year timespan, naturally modified and the like to fit in the ages.


I'd say 500+ years myself.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MrNexx
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 1420
Location: San Antonio

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For reference, HK 47 was fluent in 6,000 forms of communication; C-3PO, four thousand years later, was fluent in 6,000,000. Very Happy

However, I tend to say that things from any point in Republic History are still fairly intelligible to folks later in the timeline, but that the numbers get a bit better. The Ebon Hawk, the fastest ship in the Galaxy in 4000 BBY, is fairly slow by New Republic Standards. How much slower? No idea... and it's not going to be a clear line, and certainly not a single line that encompasses everything.
_________________
"I’m telling you, you’ll never have a deeper sleep than curled up in a Wookie’s lap."
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dredwulf60
Captain
Captain


Joined: 07 Jan 2016
Posts: 740

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tech probably seems stagnant because the maximum ratings have been more or less reached. Any further increase has a diminishing return for the effort/ expense put into it.

In addition many of the traits will be at odds:

Like real world armored vehicles have the triangle: Firepower, Mobility and Protection. Usually you can increase one for a decrease in one or both of the other traits. To be able to increase one substantially WITHOUT affecting the others...that's where the cutting edge is and we get into the diminishing returns.

In essence, I imagine that the results on tech are not that much different than what we see with making characters in the RPG.

Every bit of tech has a number of parameters and a finite number of points to divide between them, with a minimum and a maximum and a number of discretionary points that get divided.

Going above the maximums is possible with a quickly increasing demand on time/effort/ cost, but the vast majority of Star wars tech items are going to fall within the parameters whether they were made 2 years ago or 2000 years ago.

You can have a really fast ship, but it is going to have some drawbacks in other areas for example....or it is going to be the equivalent of a 'high level character'.

Any other arrangement just falls apart when applied to the stagnant tech we see in Star Wars.

Just my rambling.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Whill
Supreme Chancellor (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 5896
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Old Republic vs Rise of the Empire and beyond... Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
I am wonder how significant is the development in technology between the ages.

I don't think about the age of the Republic much because it is another disbelief suspension breaker. Obi-Wan said the Republic was "over a thousand generations" old in ANH while Palpatine said it was 1000 years old in AotC. It actually makes more sense in the prequels but Obi-Wan's line is still there in ANH. What's a generation? You could say it was only 20 years instead of 25, but we are talking about the difference between 20,000 and 25,000 and at that point they are both ridiculous so I just stick with the EU's timeframe and explanations for Palpatine's comment (There are multiple Republics). I really can't imagine how humans can have FTL for over 20,000 years and still look and act the same as humans here on Earth. It does not seem like the Star Wars galaxy has reached any sort of technological singularity but it is really mind boggling how little technology seems to have advanced over the millennia.

There doesn't seem to be any really big differences between between late Republic and Empire tech. The major difference is the biggest ships just get bigger in the Empire and super weapons appear. In the prequels we never see starfighters travel through hyperspace without those hyper-ring things so in my SWU, starfighters did not gain their own hyperdrives until after the Clone Wars. That way I can imagine that there was a miniaturization of hyperdrive tech advance and the timeframe of the films feel a bit more natural to me.

Mamatried wrote:
how old is archaic? 100 Years? 500? 1000? more than one thousand years?

I don't really know where the division should be for starships to be considered "archaic". In my game I deal with ancient Celestial technology but despite being well over 25,000 years old, it is actually easier for me to wrap my head around because Celestials are not around anymore.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration & Log-In Help
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
RyanDarkstar
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 04 Dec 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Chambersburg, PA, USA, Earth

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something I've always struggled with was resources. If spacefaring races have been mining and collecting minerals, fuels, etc. for tens of thousands of years, one would assume planets and asteroid belts within the Slice and Coreward would have been played out long before the Empire.

The only thing that would make any kind of sense for The Old Republic era would be galactic scale wars and/or plagues that severely crippled civilization for large amounts of time, such as what happened here with the Fall of the Roman Empire and the Black Death. I figure a couple of galactic catastrophes would help stagnate technology and resource gathering long enough that individual worlds would take centuries to struggle back to previous technology standards.
_________________
Currently playing AD&D 5E, The Old Republic, Neverwinter and Star Trek Online.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pel
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 984
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Old Republic vs Rise of the Empire and beyond... Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
Hyperdrives can be swapped out, so can sublight drives.

Maybe the older designs were integral and are not easily upgraded or changed. They might have built the ship around the first hyperdrives.

You could take it out, but you'd have to cut the ship apart to get at it, like we do with nuclear reactor refuelling on naval vessels.

Regarding engine speed and weapon power, maybe they don't pack much less of a punch, depending on how far back you go, but the newer ones could be much more efficient (less fuel/blaster gas consumption, more reliable, etc.).
_________________
Aha!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 12308
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Old Republic vs Rise of the Empire and beyond... Reply with quote

Pel wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
Hyperdrives can be swapped out, so can sublight drives.

Maybe the older designs were integral and are not easily upgraded or changed. They might have built the ship around the first hyperdrives.

You could take it out, but you'd have to cut the ship apart to get at it, like we do with nuclear reactor refuelling on naval vessels.

Regarding engine speed and weapon power, maybe they don't pack much less of a punch, depending on how far back you go, but the newer ones could be much more efficient (less fuel/blaster gas consumption, more reliable, etc.).


That's a good point. Maybe the older ships, were not so 'swap and plug-n-play' as modern ships can be.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 12800
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not hugely into trying to bridge technological gaps, especially for something that like TOR that feels like they basically just swapped the original SWU with essentially the same tech level back 1,000 years or so. That might be appropriate for something like WH40K, where technological growth has stagnated and atrophied, but as of the classic era, new technological advancements do seem to be occurring in a variety of fields.

That being said, this reminds me of something I saw a very long time ago in my pre-Rancor Pit SWD6 fandom days. Essentially, it was a technological scale modifier, with +/- D modifiers based on whatever time era technology was from. So a ship from the Classic Era might be the baseline, at 0D/+0*, and a ship from the Clone Wars might be at -1D/-2*, while a ship from the TOR era would be a -4D/-8*, and so on and so forth.

*used to modify the ship's Space value.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Whill
Supreme Chancellor (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 5896
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanDarkstar wrote:
Something I've always struggled with was resources. If spacefaring races have been mining and collecting minerals, fuels, etc. for tens of thousands of years, one would assume planets and asteroid belts within the Slice and Coreward would have been played out long before the Empire.

The only thing that would make any kind of sense for The Old Republic era would be galactic scale wars and/or plagues that severely crippled civilization for large amounts of time, such as what happened here with the Fall of the Roman Empire and the Black Death. I figure a couple of galactic catastrophes would help stagnate technology and resource gathering long enough that individual worlds would take centuries to struggle back to previous technology standards.

Disbelief suspension +1. Thank, Ryan!

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'm not hugely into trying to bridge technological gaps, especially for something that like TOR that feels like they basically just swapped the original SWU with essentially the same tech level back 1,000 years or so. That might be appropriate for something like WH40K, where technological growth has stagnated and atrophied, but as of the classic era, new technological advancements do seem to be occurring in a variety of fields.

I'm not hugely into trying to bridge technological gaps either. I'm not at all invested in TotJ, so if I even need a ship or something from any era in the Old Republic, I just crack open the TotJ Sourcebook and repurpose stuff because I deal with pre-film history vaguely...

CRMcNeill wrote:
That being said, this reminds me of something I saw a very long time ago in my pre-Rancor Pit SWD6 fandom days. Essentially, it was a technological scale modifier, with +/- D modifiers based on whatever time era technology was from. So a ship from the Classic Era might be the baseline, at 0D/+0*, and a ship from the Clone Wars might be at -1D/-2*, while a ship from the TOR era would be a -4D/-8*, and so on and so forth.

*used to modify the ship's Space value.

I was never a part of the old 90s email list you've mentioned, but I wonder if some of that fan material ever made it on the old internet. I don't know if I ever saw this "tech scale modifier" but that is exactly the way I've done it when it (rarely) has come up in my game. This is a simple solution. I do wonder what the Rancor Pit stat doc converters would say about the Prequel stats they've done?
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration & Log-In Help
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
MrNexx
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 1420
Location: San Antonio

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to go with "Current tech is equivalent to OT era in R&E. Future tech is better than OT era. Ancient tech is inferior to stuff in the R&E"

So, if I'm playing a KOTOR game and need stats for the Ebon Hawk, I'm gonna crib the stats for the Millenium Falcon... because current tech is equal to the OT era material in R&E. If my group in the OT era runs across the Ebon Hawk, then the stats are going to be inferior to a YT-1300, because it is ancient tech, and therefore inferior.

It's horribly subjective, but it is convenient, and keeps numbers where they should be. Buff the numbers too much, and pilot becomes a lot less relevant. Drop the numbers too much, and the pilot becomes too influential... a good pilot has too much advantage.
_________________
"I’m telling you, you’ll never have a deeper sleep than curled up in a Wookie’s lap."
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Planets, Locations, Eras, and Settings All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0