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Armour Without Location
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dph
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:19 pm    Post subject: Armour Without Location Reply with quote

Despite being an 'optional rule' it seems that the default model for armour is to include hit locations.

I've always used hit locations and I actually like that level of detail, particularly as it allows for players to wear any kind of eccentric combination of armour AND it makes one set of armour so different form another.

But... What IS the rules model for armour without hit location?
I haven't seen any official rules or even a house rule suggestion.

The only way I can see it working is to restat all the armour to try and average things out (like D&D) or use the 'main' armour worn value (probably the body).

ARE there official rules?
How do YOU apply armour WITHOUT hit locations or do we ALL use hit location?

Thanks all!
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most armors, seem to be full body suits, but if someone just wishes to wear a vest, and/or helmet, they can, but risk enemies taking a called shot, to by pass the armor.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: Armour Without Location Reply with quote

This is a good topic.

dph wrote:
Despite being an 'optional rule' it seems that the default model for armour is to include hit locations.

I've always used hit locations and I actually like that level of detail, particularly as it allows for players to wear any kind of eccentric combination of armour AND it makes one set of armour so different form another.

But... What IS the rules model for armour without hit location?
I haven't seen any official rules or even a house rule suggestion.

The only way I can see it working is to restat all the armour to try and average things out (like D&D) or use the 'main' armour worn value (probably the body).

ARE there official rules?
How do YOU apply armour WITHOUT hit locations or do we ALL use hit location?

There are official rules. R&E p.94-95 states, "Armor may not cover the wearer's entire body: if you use the optional hit location rules, this is important since armor can't protect an area it's not covering." The option Hit Location chart is on p.96. The rules for non-full-body armor without using hit location is that the damage resistance bonuses just apply to the damage resistance rolls. Without hit location, the official rule phrase "armor can't protect an area it's not covering" and similar comments on p.234 means that the hit did not end up hitting the armor if the damage seems like the armor would have prevented or lessens it. That means, that without using the optional chart, hit location with partial body armor is more of where it didn't hit, than where it did hit. Since wound status is not dependent on specifically where the wounds are on the body, you can play the game without ever including any details on hit location of wounds. That is a bit like D&D in which you just have an intangible total "hit points" that do not consider hit location.

I have been running SW D6 since 1988, and I have hardly ever used a chart or hit location "rules". However, in my game stuns/wounds all still have a bodily location for PCs and whenever it might be important for NPCs. As GM I interpret the wound status outcome of the damage and resistance rolls, and I just self-determine a hit location. When a character without any armor "soaks" a blaster bolt, I have even reinterpreted that as a miss. When a stun result seems too light of damage, I have interpreted that as a near-miss where the blaster bolt whizzes by the ear, burning the side of the face a bit and making the ear ring. If a character wears partial armor, then that can help with interpreting these assaults on disbelief suspension that the rules and dice sometimes produce. If a PC shoots a bounty hunter with only a blast vest and the result is insta-kill, then the shot could miss the armor and hit in the face. If a character with only a helmet soaks a blaster bolt (or even gets stunned), then maybe the bolt was a glancing shot to the helmet that mostly bounced off. But yes, all this means that in my game, hit location is usually not determined until after the damage and resistance are rolled. It's not a problem because you roll damage immediately you roll a successful hit.

I can see that some objections to some cases of this may be, 'But the bonus to damage resistance for the partial cover armor was included in the roll to help the damage resistance, even though in the outcome did not involve a hit to the location protected by the armor!' In D&D basic rules, the overall level of protection provided by the type of armor being worn is the main factor in determining whether a hit that can can cause damage lands, which means that some attacks that seem to miss may actually hit but don't do any damage. There's some of that type of idea going on in Star Wars, but with different rules.

But you're right, in RAW we only have one set of bonuses for partial cover armor whether we use hit location rolls or don't, so partial armor is game mechanically more beneficial without hit location than with it. I have restatted all armor to "average things out" if I read your meaning correctly. For full body armor like stormtrooper armor, I have even broken the physical and energy bonuses (and Dex and Per penalties) down by three components: body glove, body armor, and helmet (You have to wear the body glove to wear the armor, but otherwise you can wear these in any combination). But each bonus is for the overall protection without hit location. I have done this for most stormtrooper armors, some clonetrooper armors, the Fett armors, blast helmets and blast vests.

I don't use called shot rules for body hit location since the hit location is the result of GM interpretation of the outcome of the damage rolls (so I don't need rules like heads shots get bonus damage dice, etc.). Now you can still try a called shot in my game for other effects, such as shooting the blaster out of the hand of a character, etc.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think my biggest issue with the Body Location rules is that there is no method to translate being shot in the arm or the leg or the head into specific penalties for being shot in that location.

At least for the ship and vehicle damage rules, there's different effects based on what system you damage. Now, if being shot in the leg also came with a Lost Move, or if being shot in the arm came with an extra -1D penalty to all actions using that arm, I'd be more inclined to use it. But as it stands, it's just a superficially interesting rule with no practical application.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, if you happen to end up in a blaster fight with Boba Fett, you'd better hope the GM is using the Body Location rules, as Fett's unarmored legs are pretty much his only weak spot (per the stats on pg. 65 of the Movie Trilogy Special Edition Sourcebook, Fett's armor only protects his head, torso and arms).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I think my biggest issue with the Body Location rules is that there is no method to translate being shot in the arm or the leg or the head into specific penalties for being shot in that location.


SO perhaps, that's something we can work on (shifting this thread to house rules)/?

CRMcNeill wrote:
Of course, if you happen to end up in a blaster fight with Boba Fett, you'd better hope the GM is using the Body Location rules, as Fett's unarmored legs are pretty much his only weak spot (per the stats on pg. 65 of the Movie Trilogy Special Edition Sourcebook, Fett's armor only protects his head, torso and arms).


Though if you actually look at his armor in the films, his arms are not really protected...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
SO perhaps, that's something we can work on (shifting this thread to house rules)/?

I don't recall many Official Rules topics that didn't diverge into a House Rules discussion...

Quote:
Though if you actually look at his armor in the films, his arms are not really protected...

True, but they at least have the shoulder pads and bracers. Jango's armor provided much better full coverage.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
SO perhaps, that's something we can work on (shifting this thread to house rules)/?

I don't recall many Official Rules topics that didn't diverge into a House Rules discussion...

garhkal, you've been here longer than I have. RAW ceased publication over 20 years ago, so it is quite natural that official rules discussions will lead to house rules. We're a bunch of tinkerers.

If we moved all official rules threads that ventured into house rules to the house rules forum, there would hardly be any threads left in official rules. There aren't that many thread OPs about official rules as it is because this game is not super crunchy.

The thread started out as a question about RAW, so is it is appropriate here. If someone in the future is searching for a thread about official rules on this topic, it will be easier for them to find the thread if left here.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, what would be some specific penalties that could be applied for injuries to specific body parts. Lost Moves for legs is just one possibility, but penalties to Running and Dodge would be appropriate. What else?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is relevant.
We do have characters, with reduced attributes due to injuries, a person with a "stiffend" leg, maybe needing to wear some supports, will have a reduced DEX by most write ups.

To me this indicates he is injured in the leg.....suffered a leg hit.

Now to make a hip location table isn't the hardest thing to do , but scaling the damage and givinng the right values is a litte worse.

lets look at some options.
Reduce DEX will make a person shot in the arm unable to run.......this maks no sense what so ever.
reducing onlt certain skills, will affect ALL attributes, maybe with Knowledge being the least affected.

He is wounded in his right arm, this is now stull usable but at a penalty.
ALL skill requireing him to use both hands are reduced, and all skill requireing him to use his injured are even more reduced.

What I am thinking is is something like this

head
torso
r arm
l arm
pelvis
r leg
l leg

here we have a quite standard write up, 7 locations. we could make it 6 locations due to the d6 and get this.
head
torso
r arm
l arm
-------Removed Pelvis and includes this in Torso
r leg
l leg

Now is 6 Locations.

Now if the character is wounded in his arm, he can still run so reducing his overall dex makes zero sense.
so we are left with skills........

-Arm Wounds
If the arm is needed for the skill then is reduced with a wound, if the arm is not needed then the skill is unaffected.

Same goes with legs.
I can not in any way see how a leg wounds make me both unable to use my hands, and in addition blinfds me (aka reducing my dex and thus my blaster skill), I would argue a leg wound will only affect skills where my legs are needed, and most blasters and shooting them is not desinged for leg and toe use.

a head wound over a certain sverity should be instant kill, maybe what would be a critical injury to your arm will take your head clean off.

but I do miss a hit location table though
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
That's why i phrased it as a question..

So, since we have tacit permission, what would be some specific penalties that could be applied for injuries to specific body parts. Lost Moves for legs is just one possibility, but penalties to Running and Dodge would be appropriate. What else?

Well i could see
Legs - wound - 3/4th move
Wound twice - 1/2 move, -1d to all dex checks, such as running, dodging, and the like (has no penalty to shooting though).
Incap - 1/4 move, -3d pen to dex checks.

Arms -wound - -2d pen to shooting with that arm, or to climb checks.
wound twice - -3d pen
incap - arm unusable.

Head - wound, dazed, can't take multiple actions
Wound twice -
Incap - good bye sally.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gar's suggestions look fine to me.

Only amendment to the arm is I would add Melee Combat and Brawling to that penalty.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed. What of other potential penalties?
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Climbing and jumping should both be penalized with a leg wound.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
RAW Hit Location Table (Roll 1D) R&E p.96
1 - Head
2-3 - Torso
4 - Arm (roll again: 1-3 left, 4-6 right)
5 - Left Leg
6 - Right Leg
Mamatried wrote:
we could make it 6 locations due to the d6 and get this.
head
torso
r arm
l arm
-------Removed Pelvis and includes this in Torso
r leg
l leg

Now is 6 Locations.
...
but I do miss a hit location table though

I was thinking about hit location in the shower. I agree with you and RAW on the six body parts, but I don't think they should all have the same odds of being hit. I do agree with RAW that the torso is easier to hit than a leg, and a leg is little easier to hit than an arm, but it is not user friendly to re-roll for arms. So if you insist on having hit location in your game, I propose a single roll of 2D and consulting the below chart for the distribution:

2 - Right Leg
3 - Head
4 - Torso
5 - Right Arm
6 - Right Leg
7 - Torso
8 - Left Leg
9 - Left Arm
10 - Torso
11 - Head
12 - Left Leg

Torso - 33.33%
Leg - 16.67% each
Arm - 11.11% each
Head - 11.11%

Of course this is for humanoid characters. Some species may need a different chart. And do you guys want hit location apply for creatures too?
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