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Hyperspace Change of Course
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Sci-Fi doesn't care about Occum's razor, after all. Razz

It's great to see all the theories on what it might be or how it might "work."


True, sir, true.

The Hyperdrive just works.

SPACE OPERA!
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never understood the term "space opera" to define SW.. First off, most actual Operas are very dark. Lots of deaths and the like. Something SW is not known for. Also most operas deal with history and some mythology... Not science..

Ergo to ME, the term Space Opera is a mysnomer..
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I've never understood the term "space opera" to define SW..


Well...you're in luck!

Check out page 95 of the 1E Core Rulebook!
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a question: How long, do you think, are Hyperspace coordinates good for? You gin them up in the Navicomp but don't sue them immediately. How long are those coordinates safe to use?



When I first came to the SW RPG, I came from Classic Traveller, so I took a more hardcore bent on questions like these. Hyperspace coordinates where calculated to the precise milisecond--to a specific moment in time, with the ship at a specific vector, to a specific point in space.

Those pre-programmed Navi-coordinates that a starship captain could buy or get from an Astromech were 99% completed but still needed the final computations done to get the jump specific to a particular time and point in space.

That's why, I figured, that it still took about a minute to finish the hyperspace coordinates if using pre-calculated coordinates, per the WEG rules. That minute was the fine tuning needed for pre-calculated coordinates.




But...How long can you keep the pre-calculated coordinates?

I've eased up on the hard core-ness I had when first coming to the game decades ago, allowing for more Space Opera.

But, is there a time limit on coordinates, pre-calculated ones?




I started listening to Honor Among Thieves tonight, and there's a moment when Princess Leia is asked if she's yet ready to make a hyperspace jump. If not, then the "time limit" was running out, and the coordinates would have to be recalculated.



So, what do you think? You whip up some coordinates for a destination but wait to use them. How long can you keep the pre-calcs ont eh shelf?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The theory I've been working with is that BoSS uses flight recorder data to regularly update hyperspace route coordinates to account for things like radiation levels and gravity fluctuations, which are then put back out as nav-data updates as part of regular maintenance and overhaul. IIRC, there was some rule (which I can't find now) to the effect that skipping regular maintenance would result in a slowly increasing penalty to all actions (presumably including Astrogation).

Obviously, most PCs are going to be quite leery about simply giving their flight history to BoSS, but 90+% of the starship traffic in the SWU is going to be legitimate, and won't have any major issue with sharing data with BoSS (probably about the same concern we give to the ToS on Facebook). Characters who don't contribute to the system (as in, acquiring data updates without first providing flight recorder information) will still be able to make use of it, but at greater expense.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The theory I've been working with is that BoSS uses flight recorder data to regularly update hyperspace route coordinates to account for things like radiation levels and gravity fluctuations, which are then put back out as nav-data updates as part of regular maintenance and overhaul.


Yes, on one of these threads, we talked about the Galactic Atlas, where, as you said, ships at starports are constantly reporting their flight logs to the starport, and that data is used to update hyperspace coordinates.

(And...this would be something that also led to the Hyperspace Tracking in TLJ, at least as it was explained in the novelization.)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only way around it would be if independent organizations (such as the Alliance or a major shipping company or criminal group) maintained a separate navigation database that kept their own data separate, along with regular pirated updates of the BoSS data. Alliance Master-Nav is specifically mentioned in the Rebel Sourcebook, but never officially defined; I'm betting it's just what I described above. Of course, there is going to be some overlap, and that data will mirror what is publicly available, so unless they jump to somewhere completely off any official charts, it'll be trackable using the brute-force method described in the TLJ novelization.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

So, what do you think? You whip up some coordinates for a destination but wait to use them. How long can you keep the pre-calcs ont eh shelf?


I'd say at MOST a few days.. 2 maybe 3..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

So, what do you think? You whip up some coordinates for a destination but wait to use them. How long can you keep the pre-calcs ont eh shelf?


I'd say at MOST a few days.. 2 maybe 3..

Why? It's not like things shift all THAT fast in interstellar space.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose it matters how far "into" a system the jump is supposed to take you. If it takes you right up to the planet, you'd have to worry about where it's moons are and any other satellites/stations that would orbit it. The system itself may also have far-orbiting planets that could affect the angle of approach.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
The Sourcebook says that hyperspace can only be entered by ships traveling at faster than light speeds. Therefore, a ship must be accelerated to FTL speeds before it enters hyperspace

Do you have a page # on that (either edition)? I've looked in the Sourcebook and I can't find that, but maybe I missed it. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
It's not like things shift all THAT fast in interstellar space.

Right. Interstellar space is so incredible large and relatively sparsely populated that it would take a while for astogational data to go out of date.

Naaman wrote:
I suppose it matters how far "into" a system the jump is supposed to take you. If it takes you right up to the planet, you'd have to worry about where it's moons are and any other satellites/stations that would orbit it. The system itself may also have far-orbiting planets that could affect the angle of approach.

The position of those satellites would be known and programmed into the navigational data for any populated system. With our relatively archaic technology, we have tracked literally hundreds of thousands of bodies in our solar system from Earth and can calculate their position at any given moment with an large degree of accuracy. With starships and sensors it should be cake in Star Wars.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

So, what do you think? You whip up some coordinates for a destination but wait to use them. How long can you keep the pre-calcs ont eh shelf?


I'd say at MOST a few days.. 2 maybe 3..

Why? It's not like things shift all THAT fast in interstellar space.


Well, i initially thought a week at most, so xwings and other hyperspace capable fighters could store stuff in their R2 units. but that seemed a little long..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Well, i initially thought a week at most, so xwings and other hyperspace capable fighters could store stuff in their R2 units. but that seemed a little long..

Okay, but WHY? What is the reason why the accuracy of the coordinates degrades so quickly? Right now, your reasoning seems to consist of "I arbitrarily set a low window because I want to make things more difficult for PCs."
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
The X-Wing novels explained that as "pseudomotion", effectively, an optical illusion created by the jump into or out of hyperspace.


Isn't it great how the novel has to justify its interpretation when it conflicts with primary canon?

How do they do that? I'm unaware of anything in the films that contradicts such an explanation. "Hyperspace" and "lightspeed" seem to be used interchangeably in the films, but never really get into the specifics of what hyperspace is, apart from a medium used to streamline interstellar travel for the purposes of storytelling.

If you are referring to the WEG canon, then your version of hyperspace (lanes in realspace where ships travel at FTL velocities) is also in conflict with the primary canon, as WEG is quite specific that hyperspace is an alternate universe.

WEG is, ultimately, just an interpretation of the primary canon. The X-Wing games and novels are another, different, interpretation. In this case, unless Wajeb can find the WEG reference stating that ships must travel FTL speeds to enter hyperspace, the two versions don't even conflict. There is no WEG rule requiring ships to travel a certain speed in realspace before they enter hyperspace; they simply do. Having the speed-blur be an optical illusion caused by the warping of space when a ship jumps into or out of hyperspace is as good an explanation as any.
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