The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Solo (original spoilers thread)
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> General Star Wars -> Solo (original spoilers thread) Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 11524
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
If Holdo can do it, why not a kamikaze droid pilot that jumps out of hyperspace, engages the enemy, and jumps into hyperspace again while pointed at them? Star Wars droids don't appear to mind Asimov's three laws too much. Even without a droid, apparently it would have been really easy for just about any rebel to kill Palpatine in ROTJ by jumping to hyperspace in the battle of Endor.

Because the only way for Holdo to do what she did without it being universe-breaking is for:
    1) Have it be exceptionally difficult to successfully pull off (Heroic+ Astrogation Difficulty, likely with FP expenditure), so that only PCs or major NPCs can pull it off.

    2) Have it require a very large (read: rare and very expensive) ship to have enough mass to inflict significant damage.

    3) Have it require an exceptionally large target (Death Star-Scale) to be successfully targeted.

    4) Have it still not inflict enough damage to completely obliterate a target (notice that, while the Supremacy got skewered, it was split into two pieces, not shattered into millions of them.

If you want to break your SWU, go right ahead. I prefer an explanation that permits what we see on screen while simultaneously explaining why it doesn't happen on a regular basis.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
TauntaunScout
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
If you want to break your SWU, go right ahead.


The Man already did that for me. I'm not clear why it would be such a tough astrogation roll. Even assuming it is, an expensive, highly specialized droid brain with 12D in astrogation should be able to do it. Reconciled with ROTJ, an object the size of an A-Wing is enough to kill a super star destroyer. Any way you slice it, it really seems like hyperdrive missiles just became the most cost-effective naval warfare tool in the SWU.

Course why the faster rebel fleet couldn't outrun the First Empire is another thing...

The only thing I can think of is that hyperdrive engines themselves are too expensive, which is why there's no disposable hyperdrives. Cause if there were disposable hyperdrives, they'd be the norm for naval warfare based on the data from these two movies. Even that's a stretch when you think about the economics of war, but it works as a Game Master's fiat to keep the RPG going smoothly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 11524
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
The Man already did that for me. I'm not clear why it would be such a tough astrogation roll. Even assuming it is, an expensive, highly specialized droid brain with 12D in astrogation should be able to do it. Reconciled with ROTJ, an object the size of an A-Wing is enough to kill a super star destroyer. Any way you slice it, it really seems like hyperdrive missiles just became the most cost-effective naval warfare tool in the SWU.

It's somewhat convoluted, but there is a case to be made that hyperspace travel (including jumping in and out of hyperspace) can be thrown off course by gravity. No one in the EU has ever touched on it, but the bare bones version is this:
    1) WEG's Astrogation Mishap table is almost entirely comprised of variations on ships going off course (and mynocks, although how that would be the result of bad math is beyond me).

    2) The 2R&E Stats for the Interdictor's Gravity Well Projectors include a blast radius effect that increases Astrogation Difficulty by how close a ship is to the center of the gravity well.

    3) If the purpose of a Gravity Well is to simulate a large (planet-sized) object in real space, it would logically follow that being close to a planet would have the same effect (the closer you get, the more difficult it becomes to make a successful Astrogation roll).

    4) In other words, gravity increases in direct proportion to the Difficulty of plotting an accurate hyperspace route.
Based on this, my theory is that the real reason why ships have to fly so far from a planet before jumping into hyperspace is not simply because of the squelch (sensitivity) setting on the hyperdrive cut-out, but because too much gravity can throw a ship off course in its initial stages. And since a ship in hyperspace is basically flying blind on inertial guidance only, it has no way to know it is off course.

So, my theory is that, while most ships jumping into hyperspace are trying to go "out" (away from the gravity well), it would be even more difficult to try to jump "in" towards the well, where the increasing gravity is more and more likely to result in a failed Astrogation roll.

So, what you have is a combination of factors:
    1) The ship doing the ramming must be of sufficient mass that its mass shadow (the part of its own mass-created gravity that carries over from hyperspace into realspace) can do appreciable damage to an object in real space.

    2) That object in realspace must be of sufficient size to be targetable by a ram from the ramming ship. (1 & 2 automatically exclude all but the largest ships in the SWU)

    3) The object in realspace will, by dint of sheer size, have sufficient mass to create a gravity field powerful enough to make a ship in hyperspace go off course.

    4) As such, any intentional ram must be plotted with extreme precision, taking into account precisely how the target's gravity field will cause the ship to go off course (note that, even with the Supremacy literally right in front of her, Holdo still hit it slightly off-center).

    5) Even on a successful impact, the level of damage inflicted isn't going to be enough to destroy a massive target outright. Remember, WEG's version of destroyed is "explodes in a ball of flame and everyone dies." Even though it was literally cut in half, the Supremacy's wing sections remained intact, likely with a majority of the crew still alive. That's more in the range of Severe Damage on the WEG chart.
So, in summary, the Holdo Ram is only possible under specific - usually desperate or accidental - circumstances, requires a very high degree of skill or luck to successfully achieve, requires expending a very large, rare and expensive warship (that you can't reuse for anything else afterwards), and doesn't inflict nearly the level of catastrophic damage that could be achieved by other, reusable means (orbital bombard, superlasers, etc).

So, basically, it only worked because nobody sane (or not desperate) would consider it worth the risk and expense of actually trying to weaponize it.

Quote:
Course why the faster rebel fleet couldn't outrun the First Empire is another thing...

Yeah. Just because I can explain away some aspects of TLJ doesn't mean I can explain all of them.

Quote:
The only thing I can think of is that hyperdrive engines themselves are too expensive, which is why there's no disposable hyperdrives. Cause if there were disposable hyperdrives, they'd be the norm for naval warfare based on the data from these two movies. Even that's a stretch when you think about the economics of war, but it works as a Game Master's fiat to keep the RPG going smoothly.

But that doesn't really hold water either, since you can purchase a x5 Backup Hyperdrive for about the same cost as a speeder, and the plot practically requires that the probe droid pod at the beginning of ESB be equipped with an (effectively) disposable hyperdrive.

And it's not like the Empire didn't experiment with Starfighter-Scale Anti-Ship Missiles. They did experiment with the TIE Bomb, but it never really, "got off the ground" - so to speak - before Endor, at which point the Empire had bigger problems.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
TauntaunScout
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Course there's also the chance that droids just can't be trusted to do stuff that important in Star Wars. I could really see C-3PO messing that job up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Whill
Supreme Chancellor (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 4966
Location: Columbus, OHIO, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Mauul Reply with quote

It just occurred to me that in addition to the impossibility of Darth Maul surviving the traumatic hemicorporectomy that Obi-Wan gave him in TPM, another reason it doesn't make sense is that Maul's purpose in the clone wars was to defeat both the Republic (and the Separatists) but he never used his greatest weapon: his knowledge of Chancellor Palpatine's Sith identity. It seems quite an easy strategy would be to let the Jedi know Palpatine is a Sith Lord and sit back and watch the Republic erupt into chaos. It doesn't make sense for Maul to keep that secret after Palpatine left him for dead and moved on to to a new Sith apprentice.

This is all the more reason for Crimson Dawn to be lead by Mauul, a clone of Maul that didn't know everything Maul knew.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration & Log-In Help
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
KageRyu
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 984
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The details of Maul's survival (which I too found distasteful) were covered in the Clone Wars series. In general I liked that series, except episodes involving Jar Jar, and a few others, and the resurrection of Maul. I have muddled over this, and a certain scene from TLJ several times - and I am not completely opposed to the force being able to keep a character alive for a time in such hostile conditions (as there is precedent for it in the SW universe) I feel such a character would need immediate medical attention... as the effects of a force point and any power used to keep the character living would likely wear off quickly.

Maul's survival/return was because, apparently, of fan outcry... as there are allegedly a large number of people who thought he was such a cool villain (but this never saved Boba Fett). I am not among those... while he looked interesting, he didn't look interesting enough to me - certainly he was no Darth Vader (Don't get me started on Kylo) or General Grievous (would have liked to have seen him much more).

Other than this tidbit about Maul (which I completely forgot until watching it on DVD again) I really liked Solo. I think it felt the closest to the trilogy I grew up on of all of the recent movies. Sure there were things I would have liked to have seen done better - but I liked some of the previously EU only material that has now become canon. Best of all, Han shot first.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Sutehp
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 1321
Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
Best of all, Han shot first.


This. Lucas really should have left that alone. Having Greedo miss Han at point blank range was extraordinarily stupid. Thankfully, that is Fan Discontinuity. And even the short story "The Luckless Rodian" in From A Certain Point Of View from Greedo's perspective doesn't even remotely take seriously the notion that Greedo shot first.

Damn, I wanna buy a "Han Shot First" t-shirt now. Are there any Solo film themed t-shirts like that now?
_________________
Sutehp's RPG Goodies
Only some of it is for D6 Star Wars.
Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Whill
Supreme Chancellor (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 4966
Location: Columbus, OHIO, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Maul Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
The details of Maul's survival (which I too found distasteful) were covered in the Clone Wars series. In general I liked that series, except episodes involving Jar Jar, and a few others, and the resurrection of Maul. I have muddled over this, and a certain scene from TLJ several times - and I am not completely opposed to the force being able to keep a character alive for a time in such hostile conditions (as there is precedent for it in the SW universe) I feel such a character would need immediate medical attention... as the effects of a force point and any power used to keep the character living would likely wear off quickly.

I wouldn't consider it a matter of taste. My understanding of the official explanation was that Maul remained conscious as he fell and used the Force for his top half to not fall into the reactor, instead falling into a trash heap. Then his top half survived being dumped into a garbage ship and transported through hyperspace where he was dumped on an outer rim junk world, where he eventually somehow got a mechanical bottom half. It was said that Maul survived on sheer will and hatred for Obi-Wan, as if that explanation makes any sense. If someone had been waiting below, caught Maul's top half, had a team of medical droids doing emergency operations on his body and threw Maul in a bacta tank, that would still be silly but at least not quite as incredible.

When Anakin threw Palpatine down the reactor shaft in RotJ, Palpatine could not save himself with the Force and Palpatine wasn't bisected. No way Palpatine's will to survive and hatred of the Jedi was any less than Maul's, and Palpatine was clearly much more powerful in the Force than Maul. If Palpatine couldn't survive whole, then bisected Maul shouldn't have been able to survive. But I better shut up before Disney gets the idea to bring back Palpatine too!

KageRyu wrote:
Maul's survival/return was because, apparently, of fan outcry... as there are allegedly a large number of people who thought he was such a cool villain (but this never saved Boba Fett). I am not among those... while he looked interesting, he didn't look interesting enough to me - certainly he was no Darth Vader (Don't get me started on Kylo) or General Grievous (would have liked to have seen him much more).

I was a fan of Maul for TPM. He served his purpose well and I was happy with the outcome (his death). Lucas went into the PT with a basic plot outline. The story was always mainly about Palpatine and Anakin, but he wanted three different original villains, one for each movie, that each represented an aspect of Vader. Maul was the intimidating Sith enforcer who followed the will of his master. Lucas knew that Maul couldn't be a charismatic leader of the Separatists, so Dooku was that and a former Jedi who turned to the Dark Side. Anakin was Palpatine's third and final Sith apprentice, so the third movie had Grievous, the cyborg Jedi killer.

Even before AotC came out, Lucas said that Maul was cut in half specifically so fans would not clamor for his return. Maul fans would be more disappointed with him not being in AotC if his fate in TPM has been left more ambiguous. So Lucas cut Maul in half to make it clear that he couldn't come back. Then years later when the PT was complete and Lucas no longer had to protect his films from fan expectations he authorized the TCW to contradict his past films for the sake of doing new things and brining back a popular dead character, despite it making no sense to do so. Maul came back when he wasn't expected, and fans ate it up. If Maul had to come back for a film, it would have made more sense if the cyborg general in RotS was Maul who had been saved as I described.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration & Log-In Help
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Whill
Supreme Chancellor (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 4966
Location: Columbus, OHIO, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
Other than this tidbit about Maul (which I completely forgot until watching it on DVD again) I really liked Solo. I think it felt the closest to the trilogy I grew up on of all of the recent movies. Sure there were things I would have liked to have seen done better - but I liked some of the previously EU only material that has now become canon.

Glad to hear about any overall good reactions to Solo, especially from those who didn't care for the other Disney movies.

Sutehp wrote:
KageRyu wrote:
Best of all, Han shot first.

This. Lucas really should have left that alone. Having Greedo miss Han at point blank range was extraordinarily stupid. Thankfully, that is Fan Discontinuity. And even the short story "The Luckless Rodian" in From A Certain Point Of View from Greedo's perspective doesn't even remotely take seriously the notion that Greedo shot first.

Yeah, I pretty much accept Lucas' revisions to the classic films, but Greedo getting off a shot at all is the big exception. Thankfully it is literally a 'sneeze and you'll miss it' update. Han Solo has always been my favorite Star Wars character, and I think I like him even more with Solo. Solo shooting Beckett and Greedo first makes a lot of sense. Bless Ron Howard for restoring 'Han Shot First'. Not only including it, but elevating it to a climactic moment of the new film.

Sutehp wrote:
Damn, I wanna buy a "Han Shot First" t-shirt now. Are there any Solo film themed t-shirts like that now?

I have had this t-shirt for years, and I am not even sure where I got it now. I proudly wore this shirt for the premiere of Solo and it ended up being relevant to the new film.


_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration & Log-In Help
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
KageRyu
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 984
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Glad to hear about any overall good reactions to Solo, especially from those who didn't care for the other Disney movies.

I had convinced my brother to go with me (and that took some convincing as he was dead against it - he has been becoming very anti-Star Wars because of all of the changes that started with the special editions and so much he didn't like in the prequels, and too many death star like weapons, etc...). I hate going to theatres alone so managed to talk him into giving it a chance, and he also really enjoyed it. He, too, has added it to his DVD library and does not understand the online fan hatred for the movie. I tend not to read a lot online about films unless it is specifically behind the scenes regarding VFX, release dates, etc... so I missed out on a lot of what's going on regarding the new films. I only know why I like or dislike a given film.

It was eerie though, my brother and I were the only people in the theatre for it, on a weekend matinee.

As to Greedo, I never liked that re-edit, and I liked greedo as a visually interesting character. I am fortunate to have the DVD edition that came out briefly with both the original theatrical releases and the special editions (and I have never watched the special editions on those DVD's once).

I figure, with any new Star Wars movie, it will be hard to impress those of us that grew up on it for a lot of reasons. We were there when it was new, and fresh, and had never been done - it became such a pop-culture icon and infiltrated every aspect of life for the 80's and into the 90's - and on top of that, we are remembering through the haze of nostalgic love for the films that is hard for any sequel, or remake, or reboot to live up to.

I would like to see more of the newer films take some notes on the beats and elements from Solo, but sadly since it did the worst at the box office of all of the newer films, that is unlikely.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 11908
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linking Solo to the new trilogy, there's one site out there, that speculates the gal Solo panged for, who served that black sun wanna be, may be the mother of Rey..
_________________
It's Not who you kill, but how they die!
You cannot dodge it if you do not know it is coming, and you cannot hit it if you do not know its there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
KageRyu
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 984
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Linking Solo to the new trilogy, there's one site out there, that speculates the gal Solo panged for, who served that black sun wanna be, may be the mother of Rey..

She doesn't seem much older than Ben (Kylo) so that doesn't strike me as really feasible, but I do feel there is some sort of Skywalker Family connection in her background somewhere.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Urban Spaceman
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 13 Sep 2010
Posts: 165
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Linking Solo to the new trilogy, there's one site out there, that speculates the gal Solo panged for, who served that black sun wanna be, may be the mother of Rey..


That's just reminded me about the casting "exclusive" that revealed Benicio Del Toro was going to be playing Thrawn in 'The Last Jedi'.
_________________
"The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sutehp
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 1321
Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Linking Solo to the new trilogy, there's one site out there, that speculates the gal Solo panged for, who served that black sun wanna be, may be the mother of Rey..


So Qi'ra gets to the top of Crimson Dawn and then later winds up dead in an unmarked pauper's grave in the Jakku desert? And Maul was the head of both Black Sun and Crimson Dawn and also wound up buried in the Tatooine desert.

Moral of the story: don't join intergalactic crime syndicates or you'll wind up in an unmarked grave on a remote desert planet. Makes as much sense as anything else, really....
_________________
Sutehp's RPG Goodies
Only some of it is for D6 Star Wars.
Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Whill
Supreme Chancellor (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 4966
Location: Columbus, OHIO, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Urban Spaceman wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Linking Solo to the new trilogy, there's one site out there, that speculates the gal Solo panged for, who served that black sun wanna be, may be the mother of Rey..

That's just reminded me about the casting "exclusive" that revealed Benicio Del Toro was going to be playing Thrawn in 'The Last Jedi'.

I had heard Benicio Del Toro was going to be playing Ezra Bridger. lol

KageRyu wrote:
She doesn't seem much older than Ben (Kylo) so that doesn't strike me as really feasible

Umm, Solo, takes place 15 years before Ben (Kylo) was even born. So Qi'ra is about 37 years older than Ben and 47 years older than Rey.

I've also seen the same the rumor/speculation garhkal did. It suggests that Han cheated on Leia with Qi'ra, so Rey is Han's daughter and Kylo's half-sister, but not a Skywalker. I take rumors with a grain of salt.

Sutehp wrote:
So Qi'ra gets to the top of Crimson Dawn and then later winds up dead in an unmarked pauper's grave in the Jakku desert? And Maul was the head of both Black Sun and Crimson Dawn and also wound up buried in the Tatooine desert.

Moral of the story: don't join intergalactic crime syndicates or you'll wind up in an unmarked grave on a remote desert planet. Makes as much sense as anything else, really....

If Kylo was telling the truth. (And by "black sun wanna be", I think he is referring to Dryden Voss, not Maul.)
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration & Log-In Help
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> General Star Wars All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 8 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0