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What is Maximum Range?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking something similar thf other day.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Personally I like the D&D style range increment.

If I were going to redesign Star Wars weapons (again) I would list a base range for each weapon. Every multiple of that range would increase the difficulty.

ie Blaster pistol: 10m is a very easy shot. Every additional 10m increases the difficulty one level.

Blaster rifle: 50m is a very easy shot. Every additional 50m increases the difficulty one level

Basic Sniper scope: When added to a Blaster rifle, it reduces the final difficulty by 1 level, to a minimum of easy.

Advanced Sniper scope: When added to a Blaster rifle, it reduces the final difficulty by 2 levels, to a minimum of easy.

--Or something like that.


Actually it was done in WotC's Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook - the max range was base range increment x10.
In Saga Edition they changed it to dedicated short, medium, long ranges for particular weapon group, i.e. all pistols have short range at 0-20 squares and rifles 0-30.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
My thoughts...

(A) [Weapon Skill*] Marksman

Prerequisite: 5D in one Ranged Weapon Skill*

Description: This skill covers training with the behavioral characteristics of a specific type of weapon at very long ranges, enabling that character to attempt shots at targets outside of the weapon's normal effective range.

Game Use: The Marksman skill introduces a new range band beyond Long Range: Extreme Range, with a Difficulty of Heroic. To generate a maximum distance for Extreme Range, roll the Marksman skill against Easy Difficulty. On a success, maximum Extreme Range is equal to Long Range + 50%, plus an additional 50% for every 10 points by which the skill roll beats the base Difficulty. The Marksman roll to generate Extreme Range is considered a standard roll for MAP purposes.

*Marksman must be purchased and improved separately for each prerequisite skill: Blaster Marksman, Firearms Marksman, etc.

Some additional thoughts on this...

The more I think about it, this skill could be applied to pretty much any ranged weapon, from bows and archaic firearms all the way up to heavy capital ship weaponry, so long as it has a base range from which to derive Extreme Range.

Also, I'm thinking of allowing the Fire Control bonuses from scopes or other targeting systems (like the ones on the TIE/fc, for example) to apply to Marksman when rolling to generate Extreme Range.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd shift it to
"To generate the maximum range bonus, roll marksman vs an easy difficulty, taking MAPS into account. For every 5 above easy the roll is, add 10% to what the long range is. The most range boost one can get is +100%.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I'd shift it to
"To generate the maximum range bonus, roll marksman vs an easy difficulty, taking MAPS into account. For every 5 above easy the roll is, add 10% to what the long range is. The most range boost one can get is +100%.

Considering it's an Advanced Skill, I've been leaning toward starting at Very Easy instead of Easy. That way, it becomes accessible to mid-level NPCs, like Imperial Army Special Forces and other, more advanced opponents (even at 1D, you have a 1-in-6 chance of getting at least a basic range boost).

Also, like I said over on the other topic, I'd remove the 100% maximum to allow for heroically long-range shots on expenditure of a Force Point.

So, how about:

    Base Difficulty: Very Easy
    Extreme Range: +20% of Long, +20% for every 5 points of success.

This puts Long+100% at Very Difficult, which would require rolling a minimum of 6D or 7D on an Advanced Skill to have a reliable chance of getting that high. At that level, you're looking at 12-14 CPs per pip, so very few characters are going to be making shots at that level.

It does, however, leave open the option of spending FPs to get insanely long Extreme Ranges in appropriately heroic moments...
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like i mentioned in the other thread, you can't get more range out of a weapon than it's designed for..

Take the M4 carbine, Effective range is 550 yards, with 880 yards as max range.. Or the Ma deuce (M2 browning).. It only has a max EFFECTIVE range of 1800 yards, but 2,500 Maximum range..

Doesn't matter if you are a newbie to using it, or the best in the galaxy, 2,500 yards is the MOST you will be able to fire it.
Hence my 'double the long range is the cap in how far you can add' rule i offered up.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Doesn't matter if you are a newbie to using it, or the best in the galaxy, 2,500 yards is the MOST you will be able to fire it.
Hence my 'double the long range is the cap in how far you can add' rule i offered up.

Are you equating a weapon's WEG maximum range with its effective range? It's my understanding that effective range for a modern projectile weapon was the average distance it would travel before it hit the ground. Either that, or it's the distance at which an "average" shooter can be expected to hit a target of a certain size 50% of the time. Or any one of several different qualified measurements. It's not a set barrier, it's a grey area within a certain degree of error probability. WEG's range system can't precisely reflect that without delving into minutiae that isn't really necessary for running a fast-paced combat simulation.

Even going with the average shooter / 50% of the time, how do you translate that to D6? What's an average shooter? What dice level is required to get a 50% successful hit rate against a Very Difficult target (Long Range)? Exactly where within that measurement does a (which can run 100 meters or more, depending on the weapon) is the exact point at which the shooter hits an average of 50% of the time?

If making use of this rule, any shooter who hits the 5D skill level in a prerequisite weapon would be foolish to not buy into this Advanced skill at the earliest possible moment. The CP cost alone makes it worth it, especially since it stacks with the prerequisite.

Just as an example, say a character hits 5D in Blaster, meeting the minimum prerequisite for Blaster Marksman. Per the RAW, he only pays 2 CP (2R&E, page 35) to get Blaster Marksman at 1D, which means he now has an effective Blaster skill of 6D at a fraction of the CP cost (2 instead of 15 to improve 5D to 6D). It's a bargain for the player to improve his Blaster Marksman skill up to 6D before he starts putting CP into Blaster again. It gets even more disparate when you compare the sum total of CP required to reach the same effective dice level:
    CP Cost for Blaster Marksman vs. Blaster (Total CP)
    0D->1D = 2CP vs. 5D->6D = 15 CP (2 vs. 15)
    1D->2D = 6 CP vs. 6D->7D = 18 CP (8 vs. 33)
    2D->3D = 12 CP vs. 7D->8D = 21 CP (20 vs. 54)
    3D->4D = 18 CP vs. 8D->9D = 24 CP (38 vs. 78 )
    4D->5D = 24 CP vs. 9D->10D = 27 CP (62 vs. 108)
    5D->6D = 30 CP vs. 10D->11D = 30 CP (92 vs. 138)
    6D->7D = 36 CP vs. 11D->12D = 33 CP (128 vs. 171)
    7D->8D = 42 CP vs. 12D->13D = 36 CP (170 vs. 207)
    8D->9D = 48 CP vs. 13D->14D = 39 CP (218 vs. 246)
    9D->10D = 54 CP vs. 14D->15D = 42 CP (272 vs. 288)
    10D->11D = 60 CP vs. 15D->16D = 45 CP (332 vs. 333)
    11D->12D = 66 CP vs. 16D->17D = 48 CP (398 vs. 381)

Looking at those numbers, there's a strong argument to be made for not even bothering to improve prerequisites once you have an Advanced skill that stacks with them. The only exception I can see would be that, since Marksman is entirely about accuracy, I wouldn't allow Marksman skill dice to be used in Quick-Draw contests, and would require the character to use only his Blaster skill dice for the Initiative Dice Pool.

But even then, to consistently hit Long Range +100% will require a minimum of 7D in Blaster Marksman, as the D6 Bell Curve dictates a likely result of 21 (minus any MAPs for snapshots), which doesn't include the dice probabilities of hitting a target at base Heroic Difficulty (not including any reaction skill rolls). And 7D is going to be rarefied territory even for PCs.

So, somewhere in there is maximum effective range, as measured in the real world. Trying to equate the two is apples & oranges.

On top of that, Star Wars and WEG are, at heart, cinematic settings, where heroes can do amazing things at critical moments. That's what Force Points are for.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me that shows the (A) system of having the (A) skill always add in with the pre-req skill(s) is more problematic..
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
To me that shows the (A) system of having the (A) skill always add in with the pre-req skill(s) is more problematic..

So, let me get this straight...

You're the Pit's foremost defender of the RAW, and can be counted on to react quite vociferously to any suggestion that it should be deviated from...

Except when the RAW makes things too easy on PCs, at which point you think it needs to be changed...

Confused
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
To me that shows the (A) system of having the (A) skill always add in with the pre-req skill(s) is more problematic..

So, let me get this straight...

You're the Pit's foremost defender of the RAW, and can be counted on to react quite vociferously to any suggestion that it should be deviated from...

Except when the RAW makes things too easy on PCs, at which point you think it needs to be changed...

Confused


I thought everyone knew that about garhkal.


I take ranges listed for weapons by RAW and double them across the board, except for pistols, which get a 50% range increase. But, since I don't use maps or battle tiles, ranges are largely abstract. It really only makes a difference in military engagements over open terrain, which honestly don't happen very frequently.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
To me that shows the (A) system of having the (A) skill always add in with the pre-req skill(s) is more problematic..

So, let me get this straight...

You're the Pit's foremost defender of the RAW, and can be counted on to react quite vociferously to any suggestion that it should be deviated from...

Except when the RAW makes things too easy on PCs, at which point you think it needs to be changed...

Confused


Its not just PC's that use (A) Skills.. Besides (A) Medicine, and occasionally things like (A) Computer engineering, or starship engineering, its rare to actually see someone with it in my experience. AS A PC.. But for baddies, (A) Brainwashing as an advanced skill in intimidation.. Or that one for interrogation?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
But for baddies, (A) Brainwashing as an advanced skill in intimidation.. Or that one for interrogation?

I've never heard of these, so I'm assuming they are homebrew. And if they're that problematic, I'd say it's simpler to tweak the skills to make them less powerful than to tweak the entire Advanced Skill system to fit.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
But for baddies, (A) Brainwashing as an advanced skill in intimidation.. Or that one for interrogation?

I've never heard of these, so I'm assuming they are homebrew. And if they're that problematic, I'd say it's simpler to tweak the skills to make them less powerful than to tweak the entire Advanced Skill system to fit.


I forget where brainwashing came from, might have been on of the AJs, but interrogation iirc came from one of the Crackens.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I forget where brainwashing came from, might have been on of the AJs, but interrogation iirc came from one of the Crackens.

I'm afraid I'll need you to be a bit more specific. I've never heard of these, and I'm not inclined to do your research for you.

EDIT: However, since I'm feeling magnanimous, I did a basic Google search, and the only place where I can find an (A) Brainwashing skill is on the Sparks Wiki. Here it is.

To save time, here is the full description:
Quote:
Making a target completely obedient and subservient to either a specific cause or to the person doing the brainwashing.
That's it. Nothing else. There isn't even a write up for how to use the skill. That's not an Advanced Skill; it's not even really a skill. It's just somebody's write-up for what a skill should do.

The only mention there is in the WEG material of Interrogation is a few interrogation drugs mentioned in Cracken's Rebel Field Guide and the specialization Intimidation: Interrogation for the stats on the IT-0 interrogation droid.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Giving this a bump because I have a couple additional thoughts on the (A) Marksman skill:
    Conversion of Existing Characters: If a player wishes to incorporate this skill into an existing character, they may make a one-time conversion of any applicable skill whose dice level exceeds the minimum prerequisite. For example, if a character has 8D in Blaster, they may convert up to 3D of their Blaster skill over to (A) Blaster Marksman. This is a one-time-only conversion made subsequent to the GM introducing the (A) Marksman skill into the game.

    (A) Marksman & The Speed-Draw Rules: Because (A) Marksman is concerned primarily with accuracy at range, it does not stack with Blaster when determining dice pools for Speed-Draw contests. It can still be stacked with Blaster for the accuracy roll, but the dice pool for determining Initiative must be drawn entirely from Blaster, and at least 1D of Blaster must be allocated to the gunnery roll. For example, a character with 5D in Blaster and 3D in (A) Blaster Marksman wishes to perform a Speed-Draw contest, as per the rules in the HSatCS Sourcebook. Because he has 5D in Blaster, he can allocate a maximum of 4D to his Initiative, leaving 4D (the remaining 1D in Blaster, plus 3D from (A) Blaster Marksman) for the gunnery roll.

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