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Sequel Trilogy and the Future of SW
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Treefrog
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Sequel Trilogy and the Future of SW Reply with quote

To start, I enjoyed TFA tremendously. Loved Rogue One (especially once the Erso team made their assault on Scarif). I had high hopes for TLJ: even so far as being almost giddy at the possibilities of seeing my favorite character front and center.

And then reality meets expectations.

Then I saw TLJ twice in the theater. My first impressions of TLJ was favorable, although I had some serious issues with one specific segment of the film: Canto Bight (some fans have likened it to being similar to the Prequels - I disagree). I can't explain it properly, but the entire sequence felt pointless. No real resolution. Finn and Rose being sent to find a Master Slicer, get thrown in jail, find an inmate whom happens to be a Master Slicer himself, then getting caught on the Supremacy. Talk about a 20 minute waste of time. On the Phazma issue: I adored the fact that she's finally dead. However, as before, LFL will somehow bring her back in Episode IX -- they did it before with Maul, so I wouldn't be surprised if she'll be back at all. As for Luke's ultimate sacrifice, while doing justice to how I'd like to see Luke go out.... my expectations were different. I actually think that TLJ was a solid episodic film (minus Canto Bight).

Now, as for the seemingly controversial issue of the labeling of Rey as a "Mary Sue." I disagree with the term. Even Luke Skywalker's Jedi training was negligible. One reason I have is that in the leadup to TLJ, I was convinced that she was related somehow to Luke. In the film when Rey's lineage was seemingly resolved "permanently," it would have made it logical to have some connection to Luke Skywalker. I still think that her parentage is still in doubt, and wasn't resolved at all.

After my second viewing, my dislike for Canto Bight intensified. The green milk scene still didn't sit well. Rey's first Jedi lesson was still well done. I absolutely loved how Snoke was shown to be a completely useless character. As an aside, Snoke is the true "Mary Sue" here. Continuing my thoughts: the way Luke was changed by RJ from being the "optimistic center of the galaxy" to an embittered, cynical recluse is just troubling. I still think Luke's end was artistically well done. However, I noticed a significant plothole: Luke's mechanical hand didn't fall into his lap when he dissipated. In the months since its release, TLJ has been a divisive film. And its a shame. It was, overall, a well-done film -- just different than my expectations. Reflecting on how I regard TLJ is that I'm conflicted.

And then there's the latest from LFL: Solo. I won't go into detail about how Solo is the first SW film that I wasn't looking forward to. I'll just leave it as being unnecessary.

Now as to the future: I have serious reservations on Episode IX now. TFA was a joy to watch. TLJ took two steps back on the goodwill that TFA generated. The announced RJ trilogy may become the proverbial carbonite slab around LFL's neck. The Benioff/Weiss trilogy sounds potentially intriguing. The Favreau tv series sounds promising.

The rumored Obi-Wan film sounds to me like it could be boiled down as creepy: a middle-aged Jedi Master stalking a prepubescent Luke Skywalker? I don't need it, nor want it. The rumored Boba Fett film also would be unwanted to me. We already have a Boba Fett origin story: Episode II, and a few episodes from The Clone Wars series. The only way, and I mean only way that I would be interested in such a film, would be if the central plot was the partially done Star Wars 1313 project, with Boba Fett sharing screentime equally with several other bounty hunters. Maybe even including some plot points from the bounty hunter guild destruction. That seems to be a film that has promise.
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Falconer
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here’s where I am. The Star Wars that is important to me is the stuff that was around during my childhood — basically the 80s and 90s. The good and bad from that time period is already sifted, and honestly even the bad is lovable, because, nostalgia. I embrace that.

This approach helps me to emotionally disengage from the present Canon. I can still give any given new story a shot, and I might like it. In fact I think I have a better chance of liking it, from this detached perspective.

For example, TFA was such a beautiful love letter to “my SW”, that I embrace it. I rewatch the movie and I listen to the score. But even it is somehow apart from “my SW” — which is nice, because then I don’t have to think too much about things like hyperspace jumps into planetary atmosphere, or have to try to go through the (admittedly minor) mental acrobatics necessary to reconcile it with the Zahn sequels. It’s just like a standalone alternate timeline sort of deal, in my head.
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Treefrog
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falconer wrote:
Here’s where I am. The Star Wars that is important to me is the stuff that was around during my childhood — basically the 80s and 90s. The good and bad from that time period is already sifted, and honestly even the bad is lovable, because, nostalgia. I embrace that.

This approach helps me to emotionally disengage from the present Canon. I can still give any given new story a shot, and I might like it. In fact I think I have a better chance of liking it, from this detached perspective.

For example, TFA was such a beautiful love letter to “my SW”, that I embrace it. I rewatch the movie and I listen to the score. But even it is somehow apart from “my SW” — which is nice, because then I don’t have to think too much about things like hyperspace jumps into planetary atmosphere, or have to try to go through the (admittedly minor) mental acrobatics necessary to reconcile it with the Zahn sequels. It’s just like a standalone alternate timeline sort of deal, in my head.


I can agree with that.

Speaking of hyperjumps into a planetary body's atmosphere doesn't jive with established SW lore.... (i.e. Han's explanation of hyperspace in Episode IV). I guess Han forgot (in Episode VII) that you can't plot a hyperjump into an atmosphere.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually Han did not refer to jumping in atmosphere in ANH. He just mentioned that: "we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it"

1) In first example he means collision with a shadow of a star. In realspace – hitting its surface.
2) Second - coming out of a hyperspace too close of supernova’s blast wave.

For clarification – gravity, energy emissions, ect do not cast shadow in hyperspace, only solid objects do. So Falcon landing in FA does not contradict what was said in ANH – it was just dangerous as coming out of hyperspace would be close to the mass shadow (planet’s surface in this case), very, very close.
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Treefrog
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Actually Han did not refer to jumping in atmosphere in ANH. He just mentioned that: "we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it"

1) In first example he means collision with a shadow of a star. In realspace – hitting its surface.
2) Second - coming out of a hyperspace too close of supernova’s blast wave.

For clarification – gravity, energy emissions, ect do not cast shadow in hyperspace, only solid objects do. So Falcon landing in FA does not contradict what was said in ANH – it was just dangerous as coming out of hyperspace would be close to the mass shadow (planet’s surface in this case), very, very close.


And in D6 terms, he had to have used up ALL of his Force Pts, due to the sheer magnitude of difficulty in doing so.
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Falconer
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shh.... I said don’t think too hard about it....
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Treefrog
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falconer wrote:
Shh.... I said don’t think too hard about it....


Actually you said that you don't think too hard about it. Very Happy

I heard a fan theory recently that, if true, would help tremendously to bring divided fans back together. IIRC, it went something like this:

As soon as the crawl is finished, Luke Skywalker wakes up suddenly in his quarters in his Jedi Academy. In the process, Mara Jade wakes up shortly also, and they talk about Luke's Force dream of the future. Ben Solo is still a troubled student. The events in TFA and TLJ are basically a framework for Luke to guard against.

On the surface, its just like any other fan theory. I will say this: I would back such an idea.

Food for thought.
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Treefrog
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be interested in a Revan film, and the events of Kotor I, cinematically. It'd be far more interesting, plus it would be new.
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Falconer
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Treefrog wrote:
I heard a fan theory recently that, if true, would help tremendously to bring divided fans back together. IIRC, it went something like this:

As soon as the crawl is finished, Luke Skywalker wakes up suddenly in his quarters in his Jedi Academy. In the process, Mara Jade wakes up shortly also, and they talk about Luke's Force dream of the future. Ben Solo is still a troubled student. The events in TFA and TLJ are basically a framework for Luke to guard against.

On the surface, its just like any other fan theory. I will say this: I would back such an idea.

Food for thought.

Could be rad. Also it’s possible he didn’t die but was sucked into another time and/or space by some unknown power. Also the TLJ novel begins by showing an alternate future. Rey is still an enigma. So, who knows? Time travel and/or parallel timelines are possible. Man I just wish there were a way to see Luke adventuring again with his black suit and his green lightsaber and his X-Wing and R2.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falconer wrote:
Man I just wish there were a way to see Luke adventuring again with his black suit and his green lightsaber and his X-Wing and R2.

The TLJ Force projection wasn't made with Mark Hammil's body. He doesn't fit in the RotJ black suit anymore!

Falconer wrote:
Treefrog wrote:
I heard a fan theory recently that, if true, would help tremendously to bring divided fans back together. IIRC, it went something like this:

As soon as the crawl is finished, Luke Skywalker wakes up suddenly in his quarters in his Jedi Academy. In the process, Mara Jade wakes up shortly also, and they talk about Luke's Force dream of the future. Ben Solo is still a troubled student. The events in TFA and TLJ are basically a framework for Luke to guard against.

On the surface, its just like any other fan theory. I will say this: I would back such an idea.

Could be rad. Also it’s possible he didn’t die but was sucked into another time and/or space by some unknown power. Also the TLJ novel begins by showing an alternate future. Rey is still an enigma. So, who knows? Time travel and/or parallel timelines are possible.

Wow. So this is where fandom is at over TLJ. Wishing the last two films were all a dream? Luke sucked through a wormhole? Time travel? I think these "solutions" are worse than the problem they are trying to resolve. But what is the problem? The problem is that a very vocal minority of fans didn't like TLJ. So just because we didn't like TLJ, Star Wars should break genre for the next movie to undo the previous one?

I sincerely doubt Disney is going to do any of these drastic pipe dream measures. JJ Abrams said that he is not taking a single iota of fan criticism of TLJ into consideration for Episode IX. He was hired to make a Star Wars movie and he will make the best Star Wars movie he can. I just accept that Disney made a disappointing movie and hope the next one is better. It's not the end of the world that they made a Star Wars movie you didn't like.

We aren't owed anything. TLJ didn't violate any contracts, and on top of that it stayed within the genre of Star Wars. Fans just like it, or not. When this game first came out in the 80s, that was during a time where it wasn't certain Episodes I-III would ever be made. Lucas was noncommittal until the mid-90s when the prequel trilogy was announced. Then during the time of the prequels Lucas was very emphatic that he wouldn't make any more films after Episode III. He even went as far as saying he put it in his will that there can't be any more after he was gone! Well, he ended up letting go of his obsessive control of Star Wars so someone else could make new films. For me, each and every new film is pure and utter bonus - I can take it or leave it. I was not owed Episode VIII, but they made it. We were not owed Episode IX, but TFA and TLJ are the top two highest-grossing Star Wars films of all time so they will make Episode IX. There are no current plans to make Episode X, but there doesn't have to be. There are plans for a lot of other movies.

I am 100% certain that some of these movies will not conform to the Star Wars in my head. But it still is more positive to hope for the future than to wish for undoing the past. Parallel universes? They might as well do this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYNDssdsVnM&feature=youtu.be&t=112
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Falconer
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
JJ Abrams … was hired to make a Star Wars movie and he will make the best Star Wars movie he can.

And we’re just swapping fan theories about what that could be. That’s kind of part of the fun.

Whill wrote:
The problem is that a very vocal minority of fans didn't like TLJ.

Source? According to Rotten Tomatoes, only 46% of viewers liked it (out of roughly 200,000 participants).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falconer wrote:
Whill wrote:
JJ Abrams … was hired to make a Star Wars movie and he will make the best Star Wars movie he can.

And we’re just swapping fan theories about what that could be. That’s kind of part of the fun.

And it is rather soothing to speculate that it was all just a bad dream.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
WHAT IS THE AUDIENCE SCORE?
The Audience rating, denoted by a popcorn bucket, is the percentage of all users who have rated the movie or TV Show positively.
...
The tipped over popcorn bucket means the movie received less than 3.5 stars by users.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/about/

Quote:
Average Rating: 2.9/5
User Ratings: 198,298

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/

Falconer wrote:
Whill wrote:
The problem is that a very vocal minority of fans didn't like TLJ.

Source? According to Rotten Tomatoes, only 46% of viewers liked it (out of roughly 200,000 participants).

Seriously? Rotten Tomatoes is not a reliable meter of overall fan dislike of films for a couple reasons. First, it doesn't report on a binary polar dichotomy of like vs. dislike. It reports on an average of star ratings on a 5-star scale. What TLJ's rating means is that 46% of the people who rated it gave it as 3.5 stars or higher. (I "like" the film to a certain degree, but I don't know if I could give it 3.5 stars.) Second, 198300 ratings is not nearly a large enough sample size to make broad generalized states of like vs. dislike for all fans out there who saw the movie. It's a tiny fraction of the people who actually saw the film. Statistics are largely misinterpreted by the general populous, which is why it is so common for politicians to lie with statistics. Sometimes the % reported is an accurate number, but it doesn't always mean what it is being said to mean. I could give some examples in the realm of my RL professional expertise in Medicare, but it would appear political so it is best to not go into it.

And it has been my experience that most fans who like any film are not going to rate it on RT. But the very vocal minority of haters relentlessly go online and bash things anyway they possibly can, including giving movies a 1-star rating just because they feel they entitled to something they didn't get. Their personal dislike of a film is not good enough. They feel an immature need to get others to feel the same way they do. They feel that their negative feelings can only be validated by others. If you follow and social media, this problem with Star Wars fandom is at an all time high. There has been a rise in general toxicity that only comes from the internet connecting everyone to each other because in the Dark Side of the Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded. Hatred is quicker, easier, more seductive.

OK, so what is the basis for my broad generalized statement then?

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars8.htm

Money doesn't lie. There is no possible way that any movie can gross $1,332,539,889 worldwide if a majority of viewers didn't like the film. Yes, there certainly is some repeat viewership in that gross, but come on!

Of course how financially successful a movie is doesn't at all speak to artistic value or subjective likes/dislikes. There are plenty of high grossing films that I personally dislike. I thought Titanic was meh. On the flip side, there are low grossing movies, even actual flops that make a tiny % of their budget back, that I still enjoy. I am not in any way indicating that a film's gross speaks to how well anyone should like a film, just like I wouldn't say RT audience or critic scores should have any impact on someone's personal opinions.

Total gross is an objective indicator of general popularity of a film.

Although money is not a factor in my personal appreciation of films, I still follow the movie industry as part of my general 'movie-fan' hobby (I'm not just a Star Wars nerd). If a movie grosses under $300 million I think it is more reasonable to consider that repeat viewership may possibly have a more significant impact in it's gross, but even then that is likely going to only be for a movie that was heavily marketed as "You can't only watch this movie once!"

TLJ made over $1 billion over that threshold, which very clearly indicates a widely seen and largely liked film. You have the movie-goers that love a film and see it multiple times. You have a much larger group of movie-goers that like a film but only see it once in the theater. You have the people who see it and dislike it. Then you have quite a large group of people that go by the recommendations of their friends, family, strangers on social media, and critics who have already seen it to decide if they will see the movie. I have seen that there is a direct correlation between recommendations (to these people that don't decide for themselves to buy a movie ticket), and total and sustained grosses. Widely disliked movies could have a high opening weekend but ticket sales tend to drop off drastically after word gets out from the opening weekend viewers. TLJ had a well-stained gross which means word of mouth was largely good (and a lot of this word of mouth is not on the internet).

In other words, it takes a lot of people telling other people they liked the film, for a film to gross that much. It is a very safe conclusion that the film was more "liked" than "disliked". Follow the money. A very vocal minority of fans didn't like TLJ. Star Wars should not break genre for this minority. This minority should either accept it and move on, or at least stop with the excessive negativity about it on the internet. Rather than undoing the past, I think Lucasfilm should make the best possible films they can going forward.

CRMcNeill wrote:
And it is rather soothing to speculate that it was all just a bad dream.

TLJ is my least favorite Star Wars film out of the 10 so far. I do empathize. You all are completely entitled to whatever fantasies make you feel better! However, since the prequels it has been my experience that when fans go into a Star Wars film with specific expectations, they are often disappointed to even outraged that it didn't happen the way they wanted it to, so they are often more unhappy then they would have been with an open mind. I don't know how many times I have encountered people on the internet stating "I knew I was going to hate the movie going into it, and I was right." It is a self-fulfilling prophesy. If people have set their minds on the only possible way they can enjoy Episode IX is if Episode VIII was all a dream or alternate reality, or undone with time travel and wormholes, they are going to be disappointed when it doesn't happen. If fans try to have more realistic expectations now, they have 1.5 years to travel down the road of acceptance of Episode VII not being a great movie but also not the end of the world, then maybe, just maybe, they will be able to enjoy Episode IX without it leaving the Star Wars film genre.
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Falconer
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TLJ was a hugely anticipated film based on:

1. It was the first “Adventure of Luke Skywalker” (on screen) in 34 years
2. TFA was a VERY well-liked film that brought back many fans who had written of SW
3. TFA created a LOT of setup/mystery and triggered a LOT of speculation

I really, really was looking forward to TLJ. I didn’t want to dislike it or anything like that. I bought a ticket, of course. And I disliked it. My wife and, I dunno, roughly half of everyone I’ve asked about it (all of whom watched it in theaters) dislikes it. I just don’t see any grounds for calling us a minority. Isn’t it sufficient to say audiences were divided?

I have posted in several threads several very different theories/speculations about Episode IX. I never said it had to go one way; I was just riffing off another poster and trying to see if I could imagine his theory working. You’re right, probably not. But I don’t see the harm in speculation. Anyway, movies should live up to or exceed expectations, not blame fans for having high expectations.

Also, you never know. As I said, the TLJ novelization played around with alternate timelines. Rebels played around with time travel. J.J. Abrams is famous for rebooting Star Trek in a way that acknowledges the original timeline and thus didn’t alienate fans. What if they somehow decide they want to make Legends the “Prime” universe and designate the “Abramsverse” the alternative story, like they did with Star Trek? What if that was the plan all along? That might cure a very large rift in the fandom. Now how would they do that in a movie? Or would it be better if TFA stands, and only TLJ is a dream?
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WillTasker
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
J.J. Abrams is famous for rebooting Star Trek in a way that acknowledges the original timeline and thus didn’t alienate fans.


Um, which Star Trek fans have you talked to about this? Because pretty much anyone who liked the franchise before the 2009 movie, hates everything that follows it to various degrees.
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