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Masquerade Force Power
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree.

I wonder if there's a better description of the power in the D20 sourcebook that the power was converted from. I sadly do not have that book.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I agree.

I wonder if there's a better description of the power in the D20 sourcebook that the power was converted from. I sadly do not have that book.

Do you recall which sourcebook it was?
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Jedi Academy Training Manual: Page 15
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
The Jedi Academy Training Manual: Page 15

Okay, so it does specifically say "this is a mind affecting effect" under the base Illusion talent. That being said, I don't consider a statement from WOTC Saga to be binding when trying to flesh out a WEG concept, especially when the WEG concept of Illusions specifically states that it doesn't actually affect the mind.
Quote:
Suffice it to say that these powers [Illusion] somehow manipulate the senses as opposed to the mind (which is covered under the Mind discipline).
-Tales of the Jedi Companion, Pg. 83, last sentence of the Illusion sub-discipline.

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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I checked The Dark Side Sourcebook, since it was also listed as a source for the Illusion prerequisite.

Quote:
You are able to manifest phantasmal images that seem completely real to those who perceive them.


A little bit later:
Quote:
Each person who perceives the illusion perceives the same event (instead of his or her own slightly different interpretation).


Here they mention the relation to Affect Mind:
Quote:
Creating illusions does not in and of itself give the user a Dark Side Point. In fact, the Jedi ability Affect Mind draws from a similar tradition.


Here is an interesting mention in a sidebar:
Quote:
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but does not dispel the illusion. For example, a character who makes a successful saving throw against an illusion of a massive starship knows that the starship isn't really there, but cannot actually see the smaller starships hidden inside.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, as I said above, it's going to come down to personal preference. Personally I think the Illusions sub-set needs to be fleshed out separately from Affect Mind, but the people who write this stuff appear to disagree. IMO, an illusion is distinct from using Jedi Mind Trick to tell the stormtrooper, "No, I'm Captain Obvious, and I'm authorized to be here."
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Well, as I said above, it's going to come down to personal preference. Personally I think the Illusions sub-set needs to be fleshed out separately from Affect Mind, but the people who write this stuff appear to disagree. IMO, an illusion is distinct from using Jedi Mind Trick to tell the stormtrooper, "No, I'm Captain Obvious, and I'm authorized to be here."


I agree. Especially since it summons an apparition that even if the person knows its fake, still sees it until it's dispelled by the conjurer.
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Phalanks Balas
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Well, as I said above, it's going to come down to personal preference. Personally I think the Illusions sub-set needs to be fleshed out separately from Affect Mind, but the people who write this stuff appear to disagree. IMO, an illusion is distinct from using Jedi Mind Trick to tell the stormtrooper, "No, I'm Captain Obvious, and I'm authorized to be here."

I agree to. It's a visual effect not a psychic one. Thus a perception roll can be done to see it's an illusion (hologramme hiding something).
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd argue it goes beyond just visual. Doppelganger doesn't just look real, it feels real, too. TLJ went even further by creating an inanimate object (the dice) that could be held and not identified as fake.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just because one power (doppleganger) is more physical, than mental, does NOT mean the other "illusion" like powers, are the same way.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Just because one power (doppleganger) is more physical, than mental, does NOT mean the other "illusion" like powers, are the same way.

And yet, Doppelganger makes it clear that the capability is there. And if the goal is a disguise that can stand up to physical inspection (touch), it would need it.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'd argue it goes beyond just visual. Doppelganger doesn't just look real, it feels real, too. TLJ went even further by creating an inanimate object (the dice) that could be held and not identified as fake.

I do agree it is a physical illusion and not affecting minds (Threepio did clearly see Luke's doppelganger), but I'm not so sure that the dice were not identified as fake. The way Leia looked up at Luke when he handed them to her, I think that may have been when she realized that Luke (and the dice) weren't actually there. So it may be relatively easier to fool someone with visual effects than tactile effects.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Just because one power (doppleganger) is more physical, than mental, does NOT mean the other "illusion" like powers, are the same way.

And yet, Doppelganger makes it clear that the capability is there. And if the goal is a disguise that can stand up to physical inspection (touch), it would need it.


I still see the doppleganger power, more as a Physical manifestation, not a mental thing, where illusion is purely mental.
But like always, it seems no matter what i say CRM, your mind's made up...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Just because one power (doppleganger) is more physical, than mental, does NOT mean the other "illusion" like powers, are the same way.

And yet, Doppelganger makes it clear that the capability is there. And if the goal is a disguise that can stand up to physical inspection (touch), it would need it.


I still see the doppleganger power, more as a Physical manifestation, not a mental thing, where illusion is purely mental.
But like always, it seems no matter what i say CRM, your mind's made up...

Uh... wut?

My point was that Masquerade / Force Disguise - the main power we are discussing here, would need to be more than just a visual disguise. If, for instance, a character were disguising himself as a Gamorrean, it would look awfully strange if someone tripped and fell partially into him rather than bouncing off.

Where exactly did I say that Doppelganger was a mental thing? I seem to have missed it.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
I'd argue it goes beyond just visual. Doppelganger doesn't just look real, it feels real, too. TLJ went even further by creating an inanimate object (the dice) that could be held and not identified as fake.

I do agree it is a physical illusion and not affecting minds (Threepio did clearly see Luke's doppelganger), but I'm not so sure that the dice were not identified as fake. The way Leia looked up at Luke when he handed them to her, I think that may have been when she realized that Luke (and the dice) weren't actually there. So it may be relatively easier to fool someone with visual effects than tactile effects.


It's possible that Leia was skilled enough at that point to recognize the illusion, she may have decided to keep her mouth shut because Luke being there would improve morale which was pretty shaken by that point. She realized without him saying a word that he was going to buy them time to escape.

Without getting off topic too much, my wife's theory is that Luke actually projected his soul or his own Force Ghost across the galaxy, and in being separated for as long as he did, was what caused him to die in the end. I thought it was a pretty insightful theory.
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