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All-Out Speed
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:25 pm    Post subject: All-Out Speed Reply with quote

I know I've read about this somewhere before, but I can't find it (it might've been over on Google+). Anyways...

I sometimes wonder if the x4 for All-Out isn't a bit too much. I have on occasion wondered if it might be better to change it to x3. Still pretty fast, but not blindingly so. An A-Wing, for example, at All-Out would still be able to travel 36 SUs in a round.

I haven't put a whole lot of thought into it at the moment, so I'm interested in your opinions.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the balancing out of going x4 ludicrous speed is that you're only able to roll to maneuver against terrain, not attacks made against you.

The thing that I've found funny, is that in theory you could throttle your vehicle up to 1 point below 4x speed and still get a dodge. Just like you can move half move as a free action, but if you move any more than that, and it counts toward MAPs.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
The thing that I've found funny, is that in theory you could throttle your vehicle up to 1 point below 4x speed and still get a dodge. Just like you can move half move as a free action, but if you move any more than that, and it counts toward MAPs.

That's not how that works. It's actually the other way around, that anything from 1 point above Full Speed all the way up to maximum All-Out counted as All-Out.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right, I double checked R&E.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I think the balancing out of going x4 ludicrous speed is that you're only able to roll to maneuver against terrain, not attacks made against you.


Yup. Whether running, piloting a speeder or ship, if you go all out, you better hope you can get out of range of enemy weaponry, OR that they don't hit the base difficulty for range, as you have no dodge/vehicle maneuver' to avoid being shot!!
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thedemonapostle
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isnt there a maneuverability penalty that gets worse for each multiple beyond base speed? something like
x1 (base speed) no penalty
x2 -1D
x3 -2D
x4 -3D

this is what we've always done in every game ive been in since the late 90's when i started playing star wars.

the idea of removing the speed cap on space ships was often tossed around and occasionally used but the penalty increased, so a x5 was a -5D and a x6 was a -7D, etc.

the one time i can remember using that house rule was when a player wanted to escape battle and just kept increasing sublight speed. he didnt care about the penalty cause he was just flying in a straight line. he quickly came upon an asteroid field and he was doing x10 which gave him a -15D penalty. i remember it because he was in the freighter with the valuable cargo while we were in the fighters dealing with combat and he ended up abandoning ship just before it crashed into an asteroid thus costing us our small ship and millions of credits in cargo.

maybe its not the speed thats the problem but the penalty isnt enough for you.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
isnt there a maneuverability penalty that gets worse for each multiple beyond base speed? something like
x1 (base speed) no penalty
x2 -1D
x3 -2D
x4 -3D


That sounds like a first edition rule.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thedemonapostle wrote:
isnt there a maneuverability penalty that gets worse for each multiple beyond base speed? something like
x1 (base speed) no penalty
x2 -1D
x3 -2D
x4 -3D


Nope. What sort of terrain you are moving through, and at what speed, determines if your maneuverability difficulty # goes up or down..


Page 100 on.. R&E rule book
For Running, or vehicle movement or moving in space.
Cautious move - IN "very easy, easy or moderate Terrain" this is a free action. IN difficult, very difficult or heroic terrain this is an action, but reduce the difficulty one level.
Cruse move - moving at cruse counts as an action, but it's a no- roll action for easy, very easy and moderate terrain. They must make a roll for diff, very diff and heroic terrains.
High speed (x2) - Must roll for v/easy, easy or moderate terrain. If going through diff, v/diff or heroic terrain increase difficulty level by 1 category (so heroic becomes heroic +10).
All out - When moving all out in v/easy, easy or moderate terrain, increase terrain difficulty by one level (so easy becomes moderate). If going through diff, v/diff or heroic terrain, increase by Two difficulty levels.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: All-Out Speed Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I know I've read about this somewhere before, but I can't find it (it might've been over on Google+). Anyways...

I sometimes wonder if the x4 for All-Out isn't a bit too much. I have on occasion wondered if it might be better to change it to x3. Still pretty fast, but not blindingly so. An A-Wing, for example, at All-Out would still be able to travel 36 SUs in a round.

I haven't put a whole lot of thought into it at the moment, so I'm interested in your opinions.

Last year when I reviewed it, I went into it thinking the same thing, that x3 might be better x4 for All-Out. In the end, I decided to just keep it as in RAW, but now I do not remember my thought process on that. The only thing I can think of is the Partial Moves rule you and RR discussed, about moving anywhere between the half and full move for each Move Speed. Half of x4 is x2. And there is a mathematical elegance with each speed doubling the one under it. If you change All-Out to x3, then you've got x1, x2, and x3 at even increments of 1, but the lowest one is half of 1. I'm a math nerd so that may have been a thought I had.

But rewriting that Partial Moves clause to improve the system is no big deal, and that clause is technically vaguely written in RAW anyway. Between two things might include both end things or neither, but I don't think either is the intention. Based on the rules before it, it seems that the actual intention is each Move Speed includes anything above half (because half is the max of the level below it) up to and including the full speed of that level. And technically in the RAW partial moves rule you can't move less than half cautious speed. The rule also has clunky language because it uses "half" and "full" to describe things that are already half, full, double or quadruple, so they mean half of double, etc. It also uses "Move speed" (lower case speed) to describe the Move statistic but "Move Speed" (speed capitalized) for the Move Speed levels. RAW move rules are poorly written in many ways.

So if you wanted to make All-Out only x3 the Move stat, you would also have to rewrite the Partial Moves rule (which also allows us to be more precise). But I think it would be better to instead incorporate the intent into each Move Speed. So Cautious would include any speed up and including to half the Move stat. Cruising would include any speed above Cautious up to the full Move. High Speed would include any speed above Cruising up to double the Move. All-Out would include any speed above High Speed up to triple the Move.

Something along those lines.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would you also shift all out (at X3) to allowing a dodge then?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Would you also shift all out (at X3) to allowing a dodge then?

Speaking for myself, I did that a long time ago (while still using the x4) with the restriction that any action taken other than simply moving at All-Out incurred a +20 penalty to Difficulty, in addition to any MAPs. I've never liked having an absolute restriction on what characters can or can't do; I prefer to just make it very, very difficult and let the dice fall where they may.
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