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Telekinesis & Time To Use
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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In the game, there needs to be a reason why "it's a standoff." There needs to be a reason why your Jedi character can't just use Telekinesis, and that reason needs to parallel the films as closely as possible.


There's a probably also a (good) reason why they did nothing while the droids were rolling at them. They let them come, assume combat position and deploy shields. With CS up and Force Speed ready all they needed to do i position lightsaber and run.

Anyway, there's no point to deconstruct such scenes in too much detail as they will never 100% accurately fit the rpg rules. Even in movies or series, the characters use some skill, only to forget they have it 5 minutes/episodes later.

CRMcNeill wrote:
The TK happens at a moment when their blades are locked, which is essentially a lull.

To put it short: let's not bother to split round into lull phases ect. Round is a flexible amount of time. If Jedi can take MAP, he can do TK and that's it - and that the beauty of d6. You can say that he used all lull moments during his round.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I think the gesture / speech difficulty modifiers in the D6 system are appropriate here. Of course, then the question becomes, do the Force powers as written already implicitly include those gestures (even without saying they do), or do they get added in?

They do not - it would be mentioned in the rules, like: you cannot use this power while restrained, or after loosing arms.
It's more like effect for the audience, just like this deep sound that appears while Force is being used in some scenes. But still, it could be used in a game as a focusing factor helping Jedi to direct the Force (but not obligatory).
Still, working on some conversion to D6 in this matter. I want to play test it.

garhkal wrote:
Namman wasn't implying you were requiring the hands, but that based on all the films, every instance of TK we've seen used they used a gesture. Same with the jedi 'mind trick' hand waive. So Lucas himself, clearly made it SEEM like a hand gesture was required..


Meanwhile on Dagobah and Naboo



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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Naaman wrote:
The thing about dramatic value (in film) is that it does not translate into a straight forward interpretation of time flow. Something like a "lull" in the fight that was added for dramatic emphasis is simply the director giving the audience a moment to process what is going on. It's an alternative to using slow motion for emphasis. In written form it might be an exclamation point or italics, etc.

But what we see in the films can not be fully explained by dramatic pauses. Qui-gon certainly doesn't seem to be shy about using it against droids, yet somehow the destroyer droids were TK-proof because... actually, you're right. The new house rule is that using TK requires a dramatic pause, and must be declared as such. And a player has to actually say the words "my character is going to dramatically pause and use TK." Because the plot requires dramatic pauses, and TK doesn't work without them. Whill's suggested House Rule above is now officially titled the "Telekinesis Dramatic Pause Rule."

Quote:
But, yes: there are scenes where there is no reason to think that TK should always be instantaneous. The scenes I mentioned, however, seem to me to indicate that the ONLY reasons we see a delay are 1) lack of skill (Luke on Hoth in the wampa cave) or 2) especially massive objects.

The preponderance of all scenes with telekinesis indicates that the Jedi must be momentarily free of distraction, even just for a second or two. It's pretty obvious in the films.

Quote:
As for Jedi brawling, see Obi-Wan vs Jango, or Obi-Wan vs Anakin.
Just for the sake of thoroughness, I watched both scenes, and they confirm my theory even more. The closest any character gets to using TK at the same time as their lightsaber are during blade-lock moments, where the combatants have paused for just a moment with their blades against each other.


Sorry man. IMO, you're way over thinking this.

My point is simply that a "dramatic pause" isn't actually a pause. It's an interruption of the flow of the scene for the purpose of drawing the audience's attention to a specific element in the scene before proceeding with the rest of the narrative. In other words, dramatic pauses don't actually happen from the characters' perspectives. It's like when you're reading a novel and the author deviates from the action to remind the reader about something that happened earlier or gives the reader insight into the mental state of one of the combatants or whatever. When it's done on film, it has to be done visually (usually), and in a movie like Star Wars, slow motion (for example) is entirely inappropriate, hence, the dramatic pause is used instead. But it does not actually happen from the character's perspective.

Also, I already addressed the whole "at the same time as the lightsaber" thing. Your argument is analogous to saying that a Jedi can't make two attacks with his lightsaber simultaneously, therefore, he must declare his second attack this round, but can't use it till next round.

Jedi are shown many times using telekinesis as part of a complex sequence of attacks with great fluidity and facility.

As for why Qui-Gon didn't TK the destroyers? It's exactly like I said: GL needed some kind of way to move the story along, forcing the Jedi to detour from their original mission (with said detour being the rest of the movie). In other words, Jedi are only ever defeated by blaster fire when it is plot-expedient to do so. Had Qui-Gon TK'd those droids, then there would have been some other plot device introduced in order to force the story along.

If we try to assign a rule to every example of a plot device, then we, IMO, unnecessarily bog down the game and delay the arrival to the point at which the player feels as though his character is worthy of portrayal in a SW movie (i.e. "my character can do things like what I've seen in Star Wars").

So that I'm clear: I don't have any issue with you putting a delay on TK if you feel that it more accurately depicts the intent behind the cinematic portrayal of it's uses on screen.

I simply don't interpret the "delay" as relevant to the intent of what is being portrayed.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
There's a probably also a (good) reason why they did nothing while the droids were rolling at them. They let them come, assume combat position and deploy shields. With CS up and Force Speed ready all they needed to do i position lightsaber and run.


A single instance doesn't invalidate the pattern, and there are other explanations. For one, scenes appearing in a linear sequence in the films are not necessarily occuring in real time, and may actually be occurring simultaneously in order to show split perspectives.

Quote:
Anyway, there's no point to deconstruct such scenes in too much detail as they will never 100% accurately fit the rpg rules. Even in movies or series, the characters use some skill, only to forget they have it 5 minutes/episodes later.

Unless the scenes reveal something about the use of Telekinesis; in this case, an explanation for why Force users don't make us of it more often, above and beyond what would be explained by a simple 1D MAP for the single Alter roll required to use TK.

Quote:
To put it short: let's not bother to split round into lull phases ect. Round is a flexible amount of time. If Jedi can take MAP, he can do TK and that's it - and that the beauty of d6. You can say that he used all lull moments during his round.

No. As I said above, Telekinesis is used more sparingly in lightsaber combat than would be explained by a simple MAP. Whill's optional rule works for me in this regard, and the one scene that is questionable AFAIC (the Dooku v. Anakin & Obi-wan fight) can be explained in combination with this rule and use of a Force Point.

Quote:
Meanwhile on Dagobah and Naboo

The first one definitely indicates that the use of a gesture is optional. The second, however, is explained in the RAW via the Enhance Attribute power, not Telekinesis. Even if the RAW got it wrong (and the jump is Telekinetic), the jump itself seems to be the gesture needed, else the Jedi would simply float off the ground from a standing position.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Jedi are shown many times using telekinesis as part of a complex sequence of attacks with great fluidity and facility.

Where? I've watched all of them, and in no instance has a Jedi used a TK attack while simultaneously going blade-to-blade with another lightsaber or parrying blaster bolts.

Quote:
As for why Qui-Gon didn't TK the destroyers? It's exactly like I said: GL needed some kind of way to move the story along, forcing the Jedi to detour from their original mission (with said detour being the rest of the movie). In other words, Jedi are only ever defeated by blaster fire when it is plot-expedient to do so. Had Qui-Gon TK'd those droids, then there would have been some other plot device introduced in order to force the story along.

And as I said above, that's fine from a real-world explanation of what we see on screen, but there needs to be an in-universe explanation for why so as to maintain the verisimilitude insofar as the characters are concerned. If we are trying to explain what happens in the SWU in rational terms (i.e. terms that make sense to the characters within the films, and to ourselves within the context of the SWU), then there needs to be a reason why, and simply saying "oh, that's just a dramatic pause" isn't sufficient to explain the obvious pattern of Lightsaber Combat having, at least, a chilling effect on the simultaneous use of Telekinesis.

Quote:
If we try to assign a rule to every example of a plot device, then we, IMO, unnecessarily bog down the game and delay the arrival to the point at which the player feels as though his character is worthy of portrayal in a SW movie (i.e. "my character can do things like what I've seen in Star Wars").

And if it were simply a plot device, I would agree, but when a plot device has an effect on how combat occurs, and what methods are or are not used in said combat, it becomes relevant to the game. Considering the level of detail to which you are willing to go when it comes to, for example, your tactical combat rule set, I'm somewhat surprised at your dismissiveness here.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The second, however, is explained in the RAW via the Enhance Attribute power, not Telekinesis. Even if the RAW got it wrong (and the jump is Telekinetic), the jump itself seems to be the gesture needed, else the Jedi would simply float off the ground from a standing position.

I did not have the jump in my mind. I was thinking about lightsaber that began to move while Obi Wan was still hanging, so no gestures were involved.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
did not have the jump in my mind. I was thinking about lightsaber that began to move while Obi Wan was still hanging, so no gestures were involved.

And technically, Telekinesis as described in the RAW couldn't have been used here because Obi-wan did not have a line-of-sight to the saber.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Quote:
did not have the jump in my mind. I was thinking about lightsaber that began to move while Obi Wan was still hanging, so no gestures were involved.

And technically, Telekinesis as described in the RAW couldn't have been used here because Obi-wan did not have a line-of-sight to the saber.


So where's an update is needed?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
So where's an update is needed?

I'd say an a new Sense/Alter power, with Telekinesis and Farseeing as prerequisites, that allows a Jedi to use Telekinesis on the objects out of his line of sight.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't a simple Sense roll help?
"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them"
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd say an a new Sense/Alter power, with Telekinesis and Farseeing as prerequisites, that allows a Jedi to use Telekinesis on the objects out of his line of sight.


Just use the not in line of sight modifier for proximity.
"Not in line of sight but within 100m away: +5" Done!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Wouldn't a simple Sense roll help?
"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them"

No, because that's not the way the system is structured. As it stands, the LOS restriction is one of the few counters to TK that's available to non-Force users. It is actually possible to avoid a TK if you can duck out of sight. Allowing TK users to ignore that is a sufficient increase in potency that a new power is appropriate.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
Quote:
I'd say an a new Sense/Alter power, with Telekinesis and Farseeing as prerequisites, that allows a Jedi to use Telekinesis on the objects out of his line of sight.


Just use the not in line of sight modifier for proximity.
"Not in line of sight but within 100m away: +5" Done!

Yep. Why make one's life harder? Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because the description of Telekinesis says the following: "The target must be in sight of the Jedi."
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But, it also says modified by proximity, which allows use outside of line of sight for a +5 to the difficulty number!

Yay WEG for conflicting information!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
But, it also says modified by proximity, which allows use outside of line of sight for a +5 to the difficulty number!

Yay WEG for conflicting information!

Indeed. Still, I stand by my contention that there needs to be a separate power, as this is the overwhelming precedent in the RAW. Why require a power like Telekinetic Kill if you can just handwave a Sense roll and do the same thing with regular Telekinesis? Using TK requires using the Force in two different modes simultaneously, thus a two-skill power is appropriate.
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