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Raven Redstar Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009 Posts: 2648 Location: Salem, OR
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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X-Wing Sinks below the water line out of line of sight.
Plus, if line of sight was a hard limiting fact, then every time a Jedi closes their eyes when using TK, they would automatically fail. I think that as long as the Jedi is aware that the object is there and they can picture it well enough in their mind, then there shouldn't be a problem lifting something that ran or fell around a corner out of sight, hence adding the +5 to +30 based on proximity is a decent enough penalty. _________________ RR
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16163 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Raven Redstar wrote: | X-Wing Sinks below the water line out of line of sight.
Plus, if line of sight was a hard limiting fact, then every time a Jedi closes their eyes when using TK, they would automatically fail. I think that as long as the Jedi is aware that the object is there and they can picture it well enough in their mind, then there shouldn't be a problem lifting something that ran or fell around a corner out of sight, hence adding the +5 to +30 based on proximity is a decent enough penalty. |
That's plausible. However, in the example you're citing, it's Yoda who does the non-LOS TK: the grand master and not the inexperienced learner. It could just as easily be explained that Yoda knows the unnamed advanced TK skill I'm advocating for, along with other TK derivatives. Note that in AotC, he uses TK as a reaction skill against Dooku's TK attacks, even though under the RAW TK is not an official reaction skill. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Best I can tell, this comes down to a difference in perapective. Your mention of things happening on screen not necessisarily happening in linear sequence is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, so at this point, I'm confounded as to why we don't agree here.
But my main problem stems from making things harder to do when those things are not "broken" from a rules perspective.
Like I said: I see nothing in the films that is compelling enough to make me think that TK needs to be adjusted to the degree that your original post suggests.
CRMcNeill wrote: | Naaman wrote: | Jedi are shown many times using telekinesis as part of a complex sequence of attacks with great fluidity and facility. |
Where? I've watched all of them, and in no instance has a Jedi used a TK attack while simultaneously going blade-to-blade with another lightsaber or parrying blaster bolts.
Quote: | As for why Qui-Gon didn't TK the destroyers? It's exactly like I said: GL needed some kind of way to move the story along, forcing the Jedi to detour from their original mission (with said detour being the rest of the movie). In other words, Jedi are only ever defeated by blaster fire when it is plot-expedient to do so. Had Qui-Gon TK'd those droids, then there would have been some other plot device introduced in order to force the story along. |
And as I said above, that's fine from a real-world explanation of what we see on screen, but there needs to be an in-universe explanation for why so as to maintain the verisimilitude insofar as the characters are concerned. If we are trying to explain what happens in the SWU in rational terms (i.e. terms that make sense to the characters within the films, and to ourselves within the context of the SWU), then there needs to be a reason why, and simply saying "oh, that's just a dramatic pause" isn't sufficient to explain the obvious pattern of Lightsaber Combat having, at least, a chilling effect on the simultaneous use of Telekinesis.
Quote: | If we try to assign a rule to every example of a plot device, then we, IMO, unnecessarily bog down the game and delay the arrival to the point at which the player feels as though his character is worthy of portrayal in a SW movie (i.e. "my character can do things like what I've seen in Star Wars"). |
And if it were simply a plot device, I would agree, but when a plot device has an effect on how combat occurs, and what methods are or are not used in said combat, it becomes relevant to the game. Considering the level of detail to which you are willing to go when it comes to, for example, your tactical combat rule set, I'm somewhat surprised at your dismissiveness here. |
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Raven Redstar Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009 Posts: 2648 Location: Salem, OR
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | Raven Redstar wrote: | X-Wing Sinks below the water line out of line of sight.
Plus, if line of sight was a hard limiting fact, then every time a Jedi closes their eyes when using TK, they would automatically fail. I think that as long as the Jedi is aware that the object is there and they can picture it well enough in their mind, then there shouldn't be a problem lifting something that ran or fell around a corner out of sight, hence adding the +5 to +30 based on proximity is a decent enough penalty. |
That's plausible. However, in the example you're citing, it's Yoda who does the non-LOS TK: the grand master and not the inexperienced learner. It could just as easily be explained that Yoda knows the unnamed advanced TK skill I'm advocating for, along with other TK derivatives. Note that in AotC, he uses TK as a reaction skill against Dooku's TK attacks, even though under the RAW TK is not an official reaction skill. |
I think his reactive use of TK could be summoned up by the Grenade Defense power, which can be used to counter an oncoming grenade or missile weapons roll, TBH it shouldn't be that much different to roll it against an enemy's TK thrown item or TK push.
As for the different power of TK Kill, that would be a dark side version of an existing power, kind of like Emptiness and Rage. _________________ RR
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16163 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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I think Grenade Defense is a little too overspecialized, and should be part of a larger Advanced Telekinesis skill that allows TK to be used as a reaction. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Raven Redstar Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009 Posts: 2648 Location: Salem, OR
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | I think Grenade Defense is a little too overspecialized, and should be part of a larger Advanced Telekinesis skill that allows TK to be used as a reaction. |
So, you could rename the power as "Telekinetic Defense" and fold in that it can be used as a reaction against physical attacks. This would cover Arrows, Missiles, Grenades, Rocks, objects thrown with Telekinesis, you could even have it cover melee and brawling attacks if you wanted to. _________________ RR
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16163 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | Best I can tell, this comes down to a difference in perspective. Your mention of things happening on screen not necessarily happening in linear sequence is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, so at this point, I'm confounded as to why we don't agree here. |
Because in the droideka scene, there are multiple scene cuts.1) Cut to droidekas rolling down hallway.
2) Cut to Obi-wan as he yells "Master, Destroyers!" and Qui-gon turns away from the door to join him on defense.
3) Cut to the Droidekas unfolding and opening fire.
4) Cut to Qui-gon and Obi-wan parrying their blaster fire back at them. My contention is that Part 2 and 3 above occured at the same time in-universe, but were staggered in sequence in the film to show the two perspectives of Obi-wan and Qui-gon reacting and the droidekas unfolding into combat mode.
Very few - if any - of the lightsaber battle scenes feature the same sort of scene-cut. The camera stays on the Jedi, there is a brief pause in the action (whether because of a saber lock or just because no shots happen to be coming his way at the moment) and he uses Telekinesis.
Quote: | But my main problem stems from making things harder to do when those things are not "broken" from a rules perspective. |
But they are broken. Per your own argument, Qui-gon could've used Telekinesis on the droidekas simply by soaking the MAP on his Alter roll. The rules as written allow him to do that. Yet he didn't. Per the RAW, any player character of that skill level wouldn't have hesitated to use TK if he thought he could get away with it, even though the primary source of this universe that we game in indicates that it should not be possible.
In sum, if the RAW we game by does not accurately reflect the in-universe reality (in particular, allows an action in the game that is not allowed in the films), then it is broken and needs to be fixed. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16163 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Raven Redstar wrote: | So, you could rename the power as "Telekinetic Defense" and fold in that it can be used as a reaction against physical attacks. This would cover Arrows, Missiles, Grenades, Rocks, objects thrown with Telekinesis, you could even have it cover melee and brawling attacks if you wanted to. |
My rule of thumb is, if a power is designed to act against things the Jedi can't perceive with his own senses, it requires a Sense component, and if it requires faster than normal reflexes, it requires a Control component. In this case, defending against arrows and missiles requires perceiving things moving too fast for the human eye to track, and requires a faster-than-normal use of Telekinesis. So that would make it a Control/Sense/Alter power. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14023 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | Just for the sake of thoroughness, I watched both scenes, and they confirm my theory even more. The closest any character gets to using TK at the same time as their lightsaber are during blade-lock moments, where the combatants have paused for just a moment with their blades against each other. |
Maybe that's why Qui and Kenobi could NOT use TK on the droiddekas, they were too busy blocking blaster fire! _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16163 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | Maybe that's why Qui and Kenobi could NOT use TK on the droidekas, they were too busy blocking blaster fire! |
THANK YOU! That's been my argument since the OP. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14023 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: |
I think the gesture / speech difficulty modifiers in the D6 system are appropriate here. Of course, then the question becomes, do the Force powers as written already implicitly include those gestures (even without saying they do), or do they get added in? In the case of the former, the modifiers would add to the Difficulty by omitting the somatic / verbal component; in the latter, the modifiers would reduce the Difficulty as written in D6 Space.
I wonder which one you'll prefer... |
What page are those "Gesture/speech' modifiers on in the d6 books?? Or are those from d6 space?
Me, i'd have to look them up to say..
Raven Redstar wrote: | X-Wing Sinks below the water line out of line of sight.
Plus, if line of sight was a hard limiting fact, then every time a Jedi closes their eyes when using TK, they would automatically fail. I think that as long as the Jedi is aware that the object is there and they can picture it well enough in their mind, then there shouldn't be a problem lifting something that ran or fell around a corner out of sight, hence adding the +5 to +30 based on proximity is a decent enough penalty. |
And Vader wouldn't have been able to choke Ozzle via a viewscreen link! _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16163 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | What page are those "Gesture/speech' modifiers on in the d6 books?? Or are those from d6 space?
Me, i'd have to look them up to say.. |
Page 98 in D6 Space. It reads like a D&D list of possible spell components, but the idea is framed in D6.
Quote: | And Vader wouldn't have been able to choke Ozzle via a viewscreen link! |
This, too. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Darklighter79 Captain
Joined: 27 May 2018 Posts: 529
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:25 am Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | And Vader wouldn't have been able to choke Ozzle via a viewscreen link! |
Telekinetic Kill, unlike TK, is modified by proximity only.
Quote: | Maybe that's why Qui and Kenobi could NOT use TK on the droidekas, they were too busy blocking blaster fire! |
Good they managed to activate Burst of Speed. _________________ Don’t Let the Rules Get in the Way of a Good Story. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16163 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Darklighter79 wrote: | Telekinetic Kill, unlike TK, is modified by proximity only. |
But, by your earlier argument, Vader wouldn't need to bother with Telekinetic Kill; he could just use regular Telekinesis with a Sense roll tacked onto it. That's why I'm saying there should be a separate power, because the overwhelming precedent in the RAW is that more advanced abilities come with more advanced (as in, multi-skill) powers.
Quote: | Good they managed to activate Burst of Speed. |
The film evidence (indeed, the only evidence) for Burst of Speed makes it clear that it isn't subject to the same limitations as Telekinesis. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Darklighter79 Captain
Joined: 27 May 2018 Posts: 529
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: |
But, by your earlier argument, Vader wouldn't need to bother with Telekinetic Kill; he could just use regular Telekinesis with a Sense roll tacked onto it. That's why I'm saying there should be a separate power, because the overwhelming precedent in the RAW is that more advanced abilities come with more advanced (as in, multi-skill) powers. |
TK cannot be used in this way to kill as per RAW. SWd6 made these separate powers.
Anyway, my point was that Obi Wan was able to TK Jinn's lighsaber without LoS. Yet, he looked straight through the shaft, knowing it's location and moving it to his hand just after he jumped up. Analogical example was with Yoda above (X-Wing).
So basically LoS should not be there for TK power.
Quote: | The film evidence (indeed, the only evidence) for Burst of Speed makes it clear that it isn't subject to the same limitations as Telekinesis. |
My guess Enhance Attribute jump limits it: look, did not manage to catch up with his master when needed. _________________ Don’t Let the Rules Get in the Way of a Good Story. |
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