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Telekinesis & Time To Use
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:55 pm    Post subject: Telekinesis & Time To Use Reply with quote

In the films, Telekinesis does not appear to happen instantly. It always seems to require that the character using it needs a little bit of time to make it happen. In the prequels, the Jedi don't seem particularly shy about using TK to attack battle droids (or Royal Guardsmen), but the times it does get used seem to be during lulls in the battle, where the Jedi aren't actively dueling or parrying with their sabers.

I'm wondering if it might be appropriate to represent this by increasing the Time to Use for Telekinesis, perhaps having it take effect at the beginning of the round after you use it. I'm open to alternate suggestions, but I do think the evidence in the films is quite strongly in favor of something to that effect.

As an aside, I do also think there should be a separate, more advanced TK skill, most likely at the CSA level, that allows a Jedi to use TK both as a Reaction skill and a weapon. Something like this would explain (among other things) how Joruus C'baoth was able to use TK on an arrow in flight in HttE, and to use a TK'd rock to intercept a blaster bolt from Rukh in the same scene. I wrote up something to that effect in the past, but it's been a while since I've gone back and looked at it, so it may need an update.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can recall many of the scenes that you are referring to, and I will have to disagree that there needs to be a delay in its effect. Many of the combative uses of TK don't happen "while" Jedi are attacking/parrying, but many happen as part of a fluid sequence in a sort of combination attack.

I would assert that any "delay" in the effect is shown for dramatic value, in much the same way that the physical hand gesture is: it's there for the benefit of the audience so we know who is doing what. Not because TK actually requires use of the hands.

How do you interpret Qui-Gon's usd of it immediately after slicing down one droid and then firing it off even while holstering his lightsaber in a sort of reverse iaijitsu move?

Darth Maul literally uses it on ObiWan while parrying/attacking with his lightsaber.

Also, it has traditionally been accepted that TK is required to "throw the lightsaber." Do you see Yoda's use of this technique in EP3 as delayed? I don't.

We also see Jedi able to brawl while TKing their lightsaber back to hand just in time to parry the next attack, etc.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, since a round is approximately five seconds, that's a considerable delay between initiation and effect. I'm not sure that's played out in film evidence that someone makes a physical sign that they're going to use it, and then up to five seconds later the thing happens.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Also, since a round is approximately five seconds, that's a considerable delay between initiation and effect. I'm not sure that's played out in film evidence that someone makes a physical sign that they're going to use it, and then up to five seconds later the thing happens.

As I said, I'm open to suggestions. I mentioned splitting the two because rounds are the only really way in the game to divide up time.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you add in certain converted powers from D20, there are several abilities that could be used as reactive skills in the ways you described.

Push, Pull, Grenade Defense, Missile Defense.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I can recall many of the scenes that you are referring to, and I will have to disagree that there needs to be a delay in its effect. Many of the combative uses of TK don't happen "while" Jedi are attacking/parrying, but many happen as part of a fluid sequence in a sort of combination attack.

I would assert that any "delay" in the effect is shown for dramatic value, in much the same way that the physical hand gesture is: it's there for the benefit of the audience so we know who is doing what. Not because TK actually requires use of the hands.

I disagree, and I don't see why you think I'm implying that using TK requires the use of hands. What it requires, apparently, is a lack of distraction, else Jedi would use it more often. In every instance (save one, which I will address below), the Jedi using TK is either in a brief lull in combat, or (in the case of the Qui-gon example) at the end of combat.

And there is more to it than merely dramatic effect. You wondered in a different topic why Qui-gon and Obi-wan didn't use TK on the Droidekas. My answer? Because they couldn't. Because using TK requires that the Jedi using it not be otherwise engaged in, in particular, Lightsaber Combat.

Quote:
Darth Maul literally uses it on Obi-Wan while parrying/attacking with his lightsaber.

That moment could be interpreted as lull in combat because they had locked sabers at the point. It might also (assuming my theory is correct) have occured on the split between one round and the other, so that Maul, in his first action the following round declared a TK attack against Obi-wan.

[quote[Also, it has traditionally been accepted that TK is required to "throw the lightsaber." Do you see Yoda's use of this technique in EP3 as delayed? I don't.[/quote]
The Yoda throw in RotS happens at point blank range, and arguably doesn't require TK control of the saber at all. If the saber had done anything other than fly straight into the clone trooper Yoda threw it at, you might have a point.

Quote:
We also see Jedi able to brawl while TKing their lightsaber back to hand just in time to parry the next attack, etc.

Reference?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm personally not too concerned with this one. The rules are there to facilitate telling an original story featuring original characters that takes place in the same universe as the films. I don't need to make every minute detail in the films explainable in game-mechanical terms. So if Tk for an original PC or original NPC in the game doesn't work exactly like it appears in the films, that might not matter so much to player experience and the original story we are making with the game play.

CRMcNeill wrote:
cheshire wrote:
Also, since a round is approximately five seconds, that's a considerable delay between initiation and effect. I'm not sure that's played out in film evidence that someone makes a physical sign that they're going to use it, and then up to five seconds later the thing happens.

As I said, I'm open to suggestions. I mentioned splitting the two because rounds are the only really way in the game to divide up time.

I like to be helpful, so how about this? I can think of another way to divide up time. You could say that Tk is a "two-action" action. You can either prepare by concentrating for a round and then it happens on the next round, but no preparation bonus to the die roll, or the single-round option is that that it can't take place until the second action segment of the round, and that comes with a MAP. The B1s that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan seemingly effortlessly toss around are light and have no more actions that round (they've already attacked in the first action). The MAP from single-round Tk may also help explain why it isn't just the go-to move for Jedi, in case they need to save more dice for their reactions. Smile
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I can think of another way to divide up time. You could say that Tk is a "two-action" action. You can either prepare by concentrating for a round and then it happens on the next round, but no preparation bonus to the die roll, or the single-round option is that that it can't take place until the second action segment of the round, and that comes with a MAP. The B1s that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan seemingly effortlessly toss around are light and have no more actions that round (they've already attacked in the first action). The MAP from single-round Tk may also help explain why it isn't just the go-to move for Jedi, in case they need to save more dice for their reactions. Smile

That works. Thanks.
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Starbeard
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another option is to cut the initiative roll of the character using telekinesis in half. That way it encourages them to rely on it only when they are feeling comfortable that they won't be in immediate trouble if they lose initiative.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

Darth Maul literally uses it on ObiWan while parrying/attacking with his lightsaber.

Better example would be when he hurls small object into door control to open them.
CRMcNeill wrote:
And there is more to it than merely dramatic effect. You wondered in a different topic why Qui-gon and Obi-wan didn't use TK on the Droidekas. My answer?

I would say the plot required them to reach Naboo. Otherwise, they would storm the bridge, and this would bring quick end to the blockade, wouldn't it?
Later in the movie using LS and telekinesis is not a problem.
Quote:
Because using TK requires that the Jedi using it not be otherwise engaged in, in particular, Lightsaber Combat.

Like this combat?
or like this one?

PS. Has anyone noticed how powerful this back kick was? Was it enhance attribute or telekinetic kick?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Better example would be when he hurls small object into door control to open them.

With the stipulation that he was not actively engaged in lightsaber combat (he was backing away from Obi-wan and Qui-gon).

Quote:
I would say the plot required them to reach Naboo. Otherwise, they would storm the bridge, and this would bring quick end to the blockade, wouldn't it?

This is one of the frustrating arguments I encounter on this forum. At a gaming table, the plot means nothing without some sort of rule behind it to drive the plot.
    Obi-wan: "Master, why are we running away from the Destroyer Droids when we could've used Telekinesis on them?"

    Qui-gon: "Always be mindful of the plot, young padawan."
If you think that sounds stupid, well, yeah...

In the game, there needs to be a reason why "it's a standoff." There needs to be a reason why your Jedi character can't just use Telekinesis, and that reason needs to parallel the films as closely as possible.
Quote:
Later in the movie using LS and telekinesis is not a problem.

[sigh][/sigh] Note that, in the moment he used Telekinesis, there was a brief lull where he was not using his Lightsaber to block blaster bolts.
Quote:
Like this combat?

The TK happens at a moment when their blades are locked, which is essentially a lull.
Quote:
or like this one?

This (as well as the one above) would fit with Whill's proposed rule above, of a sufficiently powerful Force user eating the MAP and having to wait to use TK as the second declared action in the round.

Quote:
PS. Has anyone noticed how powerful this back kick was? Was it enhance attribute or telekinetic kick?

More like Cinematic Kick...
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing about dramatic value (in film) is that it does not translate into a straight forward interpretation of time flow. Something like a "lull" in the fight that was added for dramatic emphasis is simply the director giving the audience a moment to process what is going on. It's an alternative to using slow motion for emphasis. In written form it might be an exclamation point or italics, etc.

But, yes: there are scenes where there is no reason to think that TK should always be instantaneous. The scenes I mentioned, however, seem to me to indicate that the ONLY reasons we see a delay are 1) lack of skill (Luke on Hoth in the wampa cave) or 2) especially massive objects.
As for Jedi brawling, see ObiWan vs Jango, or Obi-Wan vs Anakin.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

I disagree, and I don't see why you think I'm implying that using TK requires the use of hands.


Namman wasn't implying you were requiring the hands, but that based on all the films, every instance of TK we've seen used they used a gesture. Same with the jedi 'mind trick' hand waive. So Lucas himself, clearly made it SEEM like a hand gesture was required..

Darklighter79 wrote:
PS. Has anyone noticed how powerful this back kick was? Was it enhance attribute or telekinetic kick?


Na, maul just rolled real high on his damage, while Obi-wan rolled low on his soak!
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
The thing about dramatic value (in film) is that it does not translate into a straight forward interpretation of time flow. Something like a "lull" in the fight that was added for dramatic emphasis is simply the director giving the audience a moment to process what is going on. It's an alternative to using slow motion for emphasis. In written form it might be an exclamation point or italics, etc.

But what we see in the films can not be fully explained by dramatic pauses. Qui-gon certainly doesn't seem to be shy about using it against droids, yet somehow the destroyer droids were TK-proof because... actually, you're right. The new house rule is that using TK requires a dramatic pause, and must be declared as such. And a player has to actually say the words "my character is going to dramatically pause and use TK." Because the plot requires dramatic pauses, and TK doesn't work without them. Whill's suggested House Rule above is now officially titled the "Telekinesis Dramatic Pause Rule."

Quote:
But, yes: there are scenes where there is no reason to think that TK should always be instantaneous. The scenes I mentioned, however, seem to me to indicate that the ONLY reasons we see a delay are 1) lack of skill (Luke on Hoth in the wampa cave) or 2) especially massive objects.

The preponderance of all scenes with telekinesis indicates that the Jedi must be momentarily free of distraction, even just for a second or two. It's pretty obvious in the films.

Quote:
As for Jedi brawling, see Obi-Wan vs Jango, or Obi-Wan vs Anakin.
Just for the sake of thoroughness, I watched both scenes, and they confirm my theory even more. The closest any character gets to using TK at the same time as their lightsaber are during blade-lock moments, where the combatants have paused for just a moment with their blades against each other.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
based on all the films, every instance of TK we've seen used they used a gesture. Same with the jedi 'mind trick' hand waive. So Lucas himself, clearly made it SEEM like a hand gesture was required..

Also of note is that the Mind Trick requires a spoken component to the character being mind-tricked, at least in most cases (Obi-wan apparently tricked the stormtroopers on the Death Star with a false sound that made them look the other direction).

I think the gesture / speech difficulty modifiers in the D6 system are appropriate here. Of course, then the question becomes, do the Force powers as written already implicitly include those gestures (even without saying they do), or do they get added in? In the case of the former, the modifiers would add to the Difficulty by omitting the somatic / verbal component; in the latter, the modifiers would reduce the Difficulty as written in D6 Space.

I wonder which one you'll prefer...
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