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Telekinesis & Time To Use
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
TK cannot be used in this way to kill as per RAW. SWd6 made these separate powers.

Anyway, my point was that Obi Wan was able to TK Jinn's lightsaber without LoS. Yet, he looked straight through the shaft, knowing it's location and moving it to his hand just after he jumped up. Analogical example was with Yoda above (X-Wing).
So basically LoS should not be there for TK power.

And yet it is. While this particular use is right on the edge (I think Raven has the right thought as far as tacking on a +5 or +10 Difficulty modifier to allow for it), the fact remains that TK, as an Alter-only power, does not include a component that would allow a Force user to affect objects he can not perceive with his own senses. That requires a Sense component.

Quote:
My guess Enhance Attribute jump limits it: look, did not manage to catch up with his master when needed.

<shrug> Or maybe he got a Wild Dice Failure on his Control roll and tried to run it out normally instead of eating the MAP and spending a FP. Probably a mistake on the player's part (as a GM, I would've considered that to be a heroic expenditure of a FP).
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And yet it is. While this particular use is right on the edge (I think Raven has the right thought as far as tacking on a +5 or +10 Difficulty modifier to allow for it), the fact remains that TK, as an Alter-only power, does not include a component that would allow a Force user to affect objects he can not perceive with his own senses. That requires a Sense component.

Movies show that's possible. Whatever the details - higher difficulty or MAP additional sense roll it's up to GM.

Quote:
Or maybe he got a Wild Dice Failure on his Control roll and tried to run it out normally instead of eating the MAP and spending a FP. Probably a mistake on the player's part (as a GM, I would've considered that to be a heroic expenditure of a FP).

That happens lot in movies.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Movies show that's possible. Whatever the details - higher difficulty or MAP additional sense roll it's up to GM.

No, movies show that the Force can be used to manipulate physical objects that are not within the Force user's line-of-sight. There is nothing in the films specifying that the WEG-written power Telekinesis is the one used to make this happen.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No, movies show that the Force can be used to manipulate physical objects that are not within the Force user's line-of-sight.


That's what I am saying - adjust the rules to fit the movies.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
That's what I am saying - adjust the rules to fit the movies.

Where needed, absolutely. But in manner that fits with the gaming system as a whole, and the Force portion of the gaming system includes discrete divisions in how the Force is used. A use of Alter that requires a Sense component to function is no longer a simple Alter power. I have no problem changing Force powers to incorporate aspects of the EU, and I do think there are powers that should be either expanded or combined. But, because of the differing portfolios of Control, Sense and Alter, there are some powers that should be separate, or else there stops being a point in having the Control / Sense / Alter triad at all.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My current position on this is that you can TK anything as long as you know where it is to begin with.

A posible interpretation of the scene is that ObiWan had a basic idea of where the lightsaber was, and he used TK to "grope aroun"in that area (the little nudges on the lightsaber before making the jump). Once he confirmed its exact location, he leapt out of the pit and the rest is history.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
My current position on this is that you can TK anything as long as you know where it is to begin with.

A possible interpretation of the scene is that ObiWan had a basic idea of where the lightsaber was, and he used TK to "grope around"in that area (the little nudges on the lightsaber before making the jump). Once he confirmed its exact location, he leapt out of the pit and the rest is history.

That's fair. It fits with Raven's suggestion of a +5 Difficulty modifier for having to feel for it. I doubt I'd go for anything further than that using just Telekinesis.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Page 98 in D6 Space. It reads like a D&D list of possible spell components, but the idea is framed in D6.


No wonder i've not heard of what you were on about. Never read d6 space..

CRMcNeill wrote:
Quote:
And Vader wouldn't have been able to choke Ozzle via a viewscreen link!

This, too.


LOL!

Naaman wrote:
My current position on this is that you can TK anything as long as you know where it is to begin with.

A posible interpretation of the scene is that ObiWan had a basic idea of where the lightsaber was, and he used TK to "grope aroun"in that area (the little nudges on the lightsaber before making the jump). Once he confirmed its exact location, he leapt out of the pit and the rest is history.


Alternately, because he was attuned to his LS, they can always sense where it is.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
No wonder i've not heard of what you were on about. Never read d6 space..

You should definitely check it out. Apparently, it's what would've become SWD6 3E if WEG had kept the license. There's a lot of useful tidbits in there that connect to a 2R&E system with relative ease.

Quote:
Alternately, because he was attuned to his LS, they can always sense where it is.

Unfortunately, Maul kicked Obi-wan's lightsaber down a shaft so deep that it was probably still falling when Obi-wan killed Maul. He was using Qui-gon's lightsaber instead.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
No wonder i've not heard of what you were on about. Never read d6 space..

You should definitely check it out. Apparently, it's what would've become SWD6 3E if WEG had kept the license. There's a lot of useful tidbits in there that connect to a 2R&E system with relative ease.

Indeed! D6 Space
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though it was Qui Gon's lightsaber, I have tended to agree that a Jedi should be able to always know where his own lightsaber is, to some extent.

Also, I always take things like LOS with a grain of salt. For example Yoda "draws" his lightsabe telekintically without looking at it, as well as closing his eyes in some instances when using TK, apparently to increase his focus or some such.

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Page 98 in D6 Space. It reads like a D&D list of possible spell components, but the idea is framed in D6.


No wonder i've not heard of what you were on about. Never read d6 space..

CRMcNeill wrote:
Quote:
And Vader wouldn't have been able to choke Ozzle via a viewscreen link!

This, too.
Naaman wrote:
n"]My current position on this is that you can TK anything as long as you know where it is to begin with.

A posible interpretation of the scene is that ObiWan had a basic idea of where the lightsaber was, and he used TK to "grope aroun"in that area (the little nudges on the lightsaber before making the jump). Once he confirmed its exact location, he leapt out of the pit and the rest is history.


Alternately, because he was attuned to his LS, they can always sense where it is.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Also, I always take things like LOS with a grain of salt. For example Yoda "draws" his lightsaber telekinetically without looking at it, as well as closing his eyes in some instances when using TK, apparently to increase his focus or some such.

I don't think it means that he must be looking at it, but rather that there must be an unobstructed line of sight between the character and the object being TK'd. It just has to be in a place where he could see it if he turned his head and/or opened his eyes.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Unfortunately, Maul kicked Obi-wan's lightsaber down a shaft so deep that it was probably still falling when Obi-wan killed Maul. He was using Qui-gon's lightsaber instead.



I completely forgot about that part.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Naaman wrote:
Also, I always take things like LOS with a grain of salt. For example Yoda "draws" his lightsaber telekinetically without looking at it, as well as closing his eyes in some instances when using TK, apparently to increase his focus or some such.

I don't think it means that he must be looking at it, but rather that there must be an unobstructed line of sight between the character and the object being TK'd. It just has to be in a place where he could see it if he turned his head and/or opened his eyes.


Nah, that seems too specific to me. I would use LOS as a guideline and let the GM decide if an object can reasonably be TK'd from where the Jedi is.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Nah, that seems too specific to me. I would use LOS as a guideline and let the GM decide if an object can reasonably be TK'd from where the Jedi is.

As I said earlier, I'm okay with fudging it a little in trade for higher Difficulties, so long as it's nearby. I'm just saying that Line-of-Sight does not automatically mean that the Force user has to actually be looking at it.
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