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Telekinesis & Time To Use
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Because in the droideka scene, there are multiple scene cuts.
1) Cut to droidekas rolling down hallway.
2) Cut to Obi-wan as he yells "Master, Destroyers!" and Qui-gon turns away from the door to join him on defense.
3) Cut to the Droidekas unfolding and opening fire.
4) Cut to Qui-gon and Obi-wan parrying their blaster fire back at them.
My contention is that Part 2 and 3 above occured at the same time in-universe, but were staggered in sequence in the film to show the two perspectives of Obi-wan and Qui-gon reacting and the droidekas unfolding into combat mode.


Droideka roll
In the linked scene 1) and 2) happening at the same time. Check the sound: while Obi warns his master and Qui Gon assumes defensive position, we can still hear droids rolling in the background. My guess is Jedi did not know about the shields and assumed simple redirect shot would help.
I cannot explain why Force Push was not used in that scene, at least in D6. In d20 - well, there's a lousy explanation.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Droideka roll
In the linked scene 1) and 2) happening at the same time. Check the sound: while Obi warns his master and Qui Gon assumes defensive position, we can still hear droids rolling in the background.

Watched it. I notice that the distinct metal-on-metal rolling sound heard when the droidekas are on screen isn't heard during 2), but is heard again in 3). There's sufficient ambiguity that it could go either way.

Quote:
My guess is Jedi did not know about the shields and assumed simple redirect shot would help.

That would make sense. Even under my understanding of Danger Sense, a personal shield generator wouldn't register, since it wasn't a direct threat to the Jedi.

Quote:
I cannot explain why Force Push was not used in that scene, at least in D6. In d20 - well, there's a lousy explanation.

Combined with the above, it still fits into my overall pattern of there being a perceptible delay, even if a minimal one, when using telekinesis. As for the above scene, they didn't think they needed to, and by the time they realized they did need to, they were too busy parrying blaster bolts to be able to use it.

In fact, the pattern even carries across into the new films. In Rogue One, during the Vader fight scene, he doesn't use TK until a point in the fight when he isn't being fired at. The only explanation I can offer as to why the Rebels stopped shooting at him was because they were taking more casualties from the blaster fire than Vader was, and it was at that point he TK'd one of them up to the roof and slashed him, then used Absorb/Dissipate on one blaster bolt before TK'ing all of the remaining blasters out of the Rebels' hands. Hacknslashery ensues.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With Vader TKK, it was more like short panic attack when soldier get crushed to the ceiling, they stopped shooting for a sec.
But in next scene when the soldier shouts "It's jammed" in the background we can see at least one shot deflected as rebels resumed the barrage, and it happens while the soldier is in the air, Vader cuts him (combo LSC and TKK). Shots miss Vader barely, and then he lessens his grip, sensing the incoming shot and deflects it with his hand back at the shooter and makes mass TK on remaining guns.
Seeing this, maybe Absorb/dissipate should become Absorb/dissipate/deflect?
And this was not the first time:
Check TESB scene - the best speed 25%.
Second shot is deflected by hand. There are two blaster marks on the walls after shooting. And the scene is an example that barrage fire can be stopped by hand deflect & TK combo in one round. I do not see any reason why using lightsaber use would in any way prevent other Jedi/Sith from doing the same.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
With Vader TKK, it was more like short panic attack when soldier get crushed to the ceiling, they stopped shooting for a sec.
But in next scene when the soldier shouts "It's jammed" in the background we can see at least one shot deflected as rebels resumed the barrage, and it happens while the soldier is in the air, Vader cuts him (combo LSC and TKK). Shots miss Vader barely, and then he lessens his grip, sensing the incoming shot and deflects it with his hand back at the shooter and makes mass TK on remaining guns.

If you watch the sequence carefully, they had already stopped shooting when he TK'd the first soldier. They did resume shooting afterward, but I would presume that to mean that a TK effect is easier to maintain once it has already been established, but the initial "push" takes a little more focus.

Quote:
Seeing this, maybe Absorb/dissipate should become Absorb/dissipate/deflect?
And this was not the first time:
Check TESB scene - the best speed 25%.
Second shot is deflected by hand. There are two blaster marks on the walls after shooting. And the scene is an example that barrage fire can be stopped by hand deflect & TK combo in one round. I do not see any reason why using lightsaber use would in any way prevent other Jedi/Sith from doing the same.

That would still fit with what Whill suggested earlier, by restricting TK use to (at least) a character's second action in a round. So Vader uses Absorb/Dissipate to soak the blaster shots as his first action, then rolls Alter with a -1D MAP (due to Absorb/Dissipate being a -1D MAP instead of the -3D MAP for Lightsaber Combat - Control, Sense and Lightsaber) to TK Han's blaster away.

Going strictly by what we see in ESB, it's debatable whether Absorb/Dissipate should exist at all, as it's questionable if any of those shots were actually absorbed (as opposed to just bouncing off Vader's palm), and on Vader's cybernetic hand, no less. However, WEG interpreted it that way, then the EU took it and ran with it, particularly in the case of Corran Horn, where he could not only absorb energy, but could convert it into temporary Force energy, which could be focused back into his Force skills.

Then along came Yoda in AotC and RotS and we got to see what Absorb/Dissipate was really capable of...

In broad terms, I'm thinking of the following fixes...
    -Shorten Absorb/Dissipate Energy to Absorb Energy.

    -If the character using Absorb Energy beats the Base Difficulty by 10 or more, he receives 1D of temporary bonus dice (available until the end of the following round) which can be applied to any one Force skill roll.

    -The Horn / Halcyon line has a Special Rule, that they can't use Telekinesis (or any power with Telekinesis as a prerequisite), but roll Absorb Energy at -5 Difficulty, and may use any Absorb Energy bonus dice to make use Telekinesis and related powers.

    -Yoda, in addition to knowing Absorb Energy, also knows the Control/Sense power Redirect Energy, which allows the Jedi to control where energy gets deflected, with similar rules to parrying with lightsabers.

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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's pretty obvious that TK and LSC can be used in the same round. CRM is decidedly against this, however. He seems to be focused on the issue of using the two "at the same time."

While I would interpret "at the same time" to mean that TK can be used while LSC is "up" and can even be used in the same round as a LSC reaction to deflect (using the films as the basis for my argument), it is too easy for a person to "argue" that anytime we see the two happen in rapid succession that the "round" changed between the two uses... Rolling Eyes

If we impose this kind of restriction, logic would follow that if TK was already used this round, LSC could not be used as a reaction later in the same round (since concentration was "diverted" toward the use of TK). Otherwise, the "not at the same time" (I still can't quite get my head around what he means by this) argument goes out the window.

But allow me to intercept an anticipated counterpoint:
"But danger sense would allow the Jedi to know if any blaster bolts were coming this/next round, so he would be safe to TK whatever opponents are remaining during the predicted 'lull' in the fight."

Here we fail to define "lull" in the fight. To me, "lull" means that the threat of danger is temporarily suspended. Meaning that neither combatant is able to present an immediate threat to the other.

A decent example within SW is the scene where Darth Maul backflips onto a separate platform putting space (and a chasm) between himself and the two Jedi. For a moment, neither side is able to attack the other until the chasm is dealt with (not the best example, but the closest I can come up with off the top of my head).

A better example, though would be if both combatants in a firefight run out of ammo (or just one of them does, giving the other a chance to take advantage of the lull).

I personally do not consider a "lull" to be when saber lock has occurred or when one wrong move will get you killed, even if the character is not directly under attack (for example, exposing yourself to a sniper, even though he is not shooting at you "right now;" or wasting a round to charge up TK while a Jedi has his lightsaber is trained on you, even though he is out of reach "for the moment"). In either example, you've used your action to accomplish nothing giving the opponent a "free" shot at you. In the case of the Jedi, if you took a round to charge up TK, then, by CRM's interpretation, you'd be unable to use LSC to parry the attack since that would be "at the same time."

In other words, a "lull" would be represented in game terms as at least one side needing a whole round or more to get back into the fight (or else suffer significant MAPs to stay in the fight this round).

In any case, when two sides of a discussion are using the same evidence to prove opposite points, then the disagreement isn't even the issue itself: it's simply a difference in the interpretation of what is being observed.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That would still fit with what Whill suggested earlier, by restricting TK use to (at least) a character's second action in a round.

Sometimes TK is used as a quick draw for weapon. Luke and a gun in a Jabba palace or Luke vs Vader on Bespin or DS2, Windu on Geonosis. Making it second action in a round would end their life real quick.
I think it because moving x-wing across swamp and moving small rock few meters are seen as equally time consuming.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Sometimes TK is used as a quick draw for weapon. Luke and a gun in a Jabba palace or Luke vs Vader on Bespin or DS2, Windu on Geonosis. Making it second action in a round would end their life real quick.
I think it because moving x-wing across swamp and moving small rock few meters are seen as equally time consuming.

I have to explain this again. Luke Wasn't Doing Anything Else At The Moment He Used Telekinesis. Per Whill's suggestion, he prepped the TK roll in the previous round, when he was just standing there in front of Jabba.

If you're going to cite an example, at least make sure it actually applies to the scenario I'm discussing. Unless he was actually using Lightsaber Combat at the same time he used Telekinesis, your argument is invalid.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I think it's pretty obvious that TK and LSC can be used in the same round. CRM is decidedly against this, however. He seems to be focused on the issue of using the two "at the same time."

No. I suggested this at first because it was the only way I could think of to divide the use of Lightsaber Combat and Telekinesis in time, but I specifically stated that I was open to suggestions. Whill then suggested the following:
    "You could say that Tk is a 'two-action' action. You can either prepare by concentrating for a round and then it happens on the next round, but no preparation bonus to the die roll, or the single-round option is that that it can't take place until the second action segment of the round, and that comes with a MAP.

I recognized right away that this was a far better way of representing what I see in the films, and if you track my arguments across the last five pages, you'll see that I default to this rule, and not my initial suggestion of dividing LSC and TK between rounds.

Quote:
Here we fail to define "lull" in the fight. To me, "lull" means that the threat of danger is temporarily suspended. Meaning that neither combatant is able to present an immediate threat to the other.

To me, "lull" is a moment where there is no actionable threat to be countered. There may be lightsabers to duel against or blaster bolts to parry immediately before and after, but to use Telekinesis in combat requires a brief cessation of threats against which the character must act to defend himself. It doesn't have to last long, just a second or two, but the sequence in the films makes it clear that it does exist.

If you have a better word for it than "lull," I'm all ears.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Darklighter79 wrote:
Sometimes TK is used as a quick draw for weapon. Luke and a gun in a Jabba palace or Luke vs Vader on Bespin or DS2, Windu on Geonosis. Making it second action in a round would end their life real quick.
I think it because moving x-wing across swamp and moving small rock few meters are seen as equally time consuming.

I have to explain this again. Luke Wasn't Doing Anything Else At The Moment He Used Telekinesis. Per Whill's suggestion, he prepped the TK roll in the previous round, when he was just standing there in front of Jabba.

If you're going to cite an example, at least make sure it actually applies to the scenario I'm discussing. Unless he was actually using Lightsaber Combat at the same time he used Telekinesis, your argument is invalid.

I was referring to the first post and topic title, where proposition was made towards TK generally, supported by an example of power combo, yet not stating that is has to be combined with other powers in order to be delayed. Hence my examples.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, never mind what I actually wrote in the OP, it’s the brief bit I can fit in the subject line that provides the real intent. Got it.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:

Seeing this, maybe Absorb/dissipate should become Absorb/dissipate/deflect?.


I've mentioned, in the past, about how sweet it might be to have a 'redirect' power linked to AB/Dis, that has A/D as a pre-req, so someone could do an impersonation of Bishop from the X-men.. BUT i am not sure what diff it would have..

Quote:
Going strictly by what we see in ESB, it's debatable whether Absorb/Dissipate should exist at all, as it's questionable if any of those shots were actually absorbed (as opposed to just bouncing off Vader's palm), and on Vader's cybernetic hand, no less. However, WEG interpreted it that way, then the EU took it and ran with it, particularly in the case of Corran Horn, where he could not only absorb energy, but could convert it into temporary Force energy, which could be focused back into his Force skills.


Egads, i agree with C here. I don't see what vader did in that ESB scene really as absorbing, more that he may have channeled some energy into his hand to strengthen the armor so it deflected han's shots.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I've mentioned, in the past, about how sweet it might be to have a 'redirect' power linked to AB/Dis, that has A/D as a pre-req, so someone could do an impersonation of Bishop from the X-men.. BUT i am not sure what diff it would have..

Make it a C/S power, with the same Difficulty as Ab/Dis (but with the MAP from rolling C/S), and on success, just use the rules for deflecting blaster bolts under Lightsaber Combat.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:


If you have a better word for it than "lull," I'm all ears.


Nah, I have nothing. I'm using what I (think I) know about fighting (in melee and at range) to interpret what I see. And you're doing the same. We just interpret the nuances differently.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:


I've mentioned, in the past, about how sweet it might be to have a 'redirect' power linked to AB/Dis, that has A/D as a pre-req, so someone could do an impersonation of Bishop from the X-men.. BUT i am not sure what diff it would have..



Some argue that Setele Shan did this after using Absorb/Dissipate (referred to by youtubers as "tutuminis" [sp?]) against Malgus' lightsaber in order to blast him into the mountainside. If you choose to view it that way, I does work; however, being strong enough in the force to absorb/dissipate a lightsaber attack from a Sith lord in the first place leaves little doubt as to whether she could have done this to him with her baseline alter skill (his control was obviously low enough compared to hers that she could soak his lightsaber damage).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget Force Points. That situation was sufficiently dire that she could have FP'd her Control roll to have a chance of soaking the damage. And if I, Jedi has it right, once she soaked the initial roll, she would've had enough extra D rolling in from converting the absorbed energy to potential Force energy that she could do the super-powered TK Push on Malgus.
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