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Telekinesis & Time To Use
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I've mentioned, in the past, about how sweet it might be to have a 'redirect' power linked to AB/Dis, that has A/D as a pre-req, so someone could do an impersonation of Bishop from the X-men.. BUT i am not sure what diff it would have..

Make it a C/S power, with the same Difficulty as Ab/Dis (but with the MAP from rolling C/S), and on success, just use the rules for deflecting blaster bolts under Lightsaber Combat.


And be sure to clarify if hands are obligatory or optional (or other body parts). Wink
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I've mentioned, in the past, about how sweet it might be to have a 'redirect' power linked to AB/Dis, that has A/D as a pre-req, so someone could do an impersonation of Bishop from the X-men.. BUT i am not sure what diff it would have..

Make it a C/S power, with the same Difficulty as Ab/Dis (but with the MAP from rolling C/S), and on success, just use the rules for deflecting blaster bolts under Lightsaber Combat.


How's about

Reflection
C/S power.
Moderate control diff
Difficult Sense diff, or target's dodge.
Pre-req, Ab dis

NOTE USING THIS POWER in such a manner as it actually causes an opponent a wound or greater, earns a DSP.

With this power, a jedi can, once he's absorbed an energy attack, redirect it elsewhere. Say into destroying the cover an opponent's using, or even into a blast back at that opponent.

They can redirect up to 1d of damage, for every 2d of control they have.
??
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't go with the DSP; after all, the only time we actually see this power used on screen, Yoda redirects Dooku's Force Lightning right back at him, with Dooku then, in turn, deflecting it back up to the ceiling.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have also my doubts against DPS. Technically it's the same as LSC but without a weapon. Jedi do not get DSP for redirecting shots.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, drop the 1D reflected for every 2D absorbed. This just has A/D as a prerequisite; he’s not absorbing or dissipating it, he’s deflecting it away.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Don't forget Force Points. That situation was sufficiently dire that she could have FP'd her Control roll to have a chance of soaking the damage. And if I, Jedi has it right, once she soaked the initial roll, she would've had enough extra D rolling in from converting the absorbed energy to potential Force energy that she could do the super-powered TK Push on Malgus.


Even still: the difficulty of absorb/dissipate is moderate PLUS the damage dealt, which is 5D PLUS control. You would need ~9D in control to reliably pull off absorb/dissipate on just the 5D damage, let alone Malgus' control dice being added to that.

I do tend to interpret what she did there as being a substantial feat of force mastery, regardless of whether it cost a force point or not: it's not something that any other character has ever attempted, and it surprised the daylights out of Malgus, as well.

However, I choose to interpret that scene as Satele just being more powerful than Malgus (and having a particularly high level of skill with absorb/dissipate and telekinesis/force strike/push or whatever it's called).
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Even still: the difficulty of absorb/dissipate is moderate PLUS the damage dealt, which is 5D PLUS control. You would need ~9D in control to reliably pull off absorb/dissipate on just the 5D damage, let alone Malgus' control dice being added to that.

I'm willing to bet Sateele Shan's Control was higher than 5D, so this isn't a problem for me. And no one has ever clarified exactly what form the Control boost to damage takes on a lightsaber. I've always found it a little suspect. Unless the Jedi is actually using the Force to boost the power of the weapon (which is kind of silly, really), any bonus would be the result of using the guidance of the Force to place the blade with pinpoint accuracy where it will do the most damage, and there are other ways that could be accomplished.

Quote:
I do tend to interpret what she did there as being a substantial feat of force mastery, regardless of whether it cost a force point or not: it's not something that any other character has ever attempted, and it surprised the daylights out of Malgus, as well.

However, I choose to interpret that scene as Satele just being more powerful than Malgus (and having a particularly high level of skill with absorb/dissipate and telekinesis/force strike/push or whatever it's called).

I went back and watched the clip, just to make sure. The Absorb/Dissipate use was actually at a stalemate until Malgus was attacked by the Republic Trooper (was he ever given a name?) with the grenade sneak attack. Shan hit him with the Force push as he was recovering.

As for the rest of it, I get the sense that you're describing it based on your evolving view of Force powers, and while I'm the last one to fault you for coming up with your own house rules, I do get the sense that we are talking past each other in regards to how the Force is applied in the game. Are you talking about treating Absorb/Dissipate and Force Push as actual skills to be improved, ala the witches of Dathomir?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I wouldn't go with the DSP; after all, the only time we actually see this power used on screen, Yoda redirects Dooku's Force Lightning right back at him, with Dooku then, in turn, deflecting it back up to the ceiling.


Well, based on the films luke shouldn't have had a DSP at the start of ROTJ because of force choking the gammoreans, nor would Yoda have earned one in ROTS when he TK slammed those two royal guardsmen into the wall..
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Well, based on the films luke shouldn't have had a DSP at the start of ROTJ because of force choking the gammoreans, nor would Yoda have earned one in ROTS when he TK slammed those two royal guardsmen into the wall..

Well, based on ALL the films, there is a strong case to be made that using TK as an attack is not an inherently DSP worthy act, regardless of what WEG says. It was questionable even how they justified it in RotJ.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:43 am    Post subject: Re: Telekinesis & Time To Use Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Well, based on the films luke shouldn't have had a DSP at the start of ROTJ because of force choking the gammoreans, nor would Yoda have earned one in ROTS when he TK slammed those two royal guardsmen into the wall..

Well, based on ALL the films, there is a strong case to be made that using TK as an attack is not an inherently DSP worthy act, regardless of what WEG says. It was questionable even how they justified it in RotJ.

I concur.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
I can think of another way to divide up time. You could say that Tk is a "two-action" action. You can either prepare by concentrating for a round and then it happens on the next round, but no preparation bonus to the die roll, or the single-round option is that that it can't take place until the second action segment of the round, and that comes with a MAP. The B1s that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan seemingly effortlessly toss around are light and have no more actions that round (they've already attacked in the first action). The MAP from single-round Tk may also help explain why it isn't just the go-to move for Jedi, in case they need to save more dice for their reactions. Smile

That works. Thanks.

It occurred to me that an even better idea was to actually make Telekinesis a two-action power by making it a two-skill power: sense + alter. You've got to be able to feel the Force externally to make it move stuff around. The 'line of sight' bit in the rule doesn't really compute with the films because Yoda moved a completely-submerged X-wing around with his eyes closed. Sense also being a part of Telekinesis makes sense.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:32 am    Post subject: Re: Telekinesis & Time To Use Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
It occurred to me that an even better idea was to actually make Telekinesis a two-action power by making it a two-skill power: sense + alter. You've got to be able to feel the Force externally to make it move stuff around. The 'line of sight' bit in the rule doesn't really compute with the films because Yoda moved a completely-submerged X-wing around with his eyes closed. Sense also being a part of Telekinesis makes sense.

Interesting. The main drawback I see is that the same argument could be applied to all of the other Alter Powers - Injure/Kill, Dark Side Web and Bolt of Hatred (although I haven't seen anything to make me think Bolt of Hatred exists apart from Force Lightning) - which would effectively strip Alter of all the powers in its portfolio, and only allow it to be used in combination with Sense or Control.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing...

In fact, that may turn out to be a better option than what you suggested earlier about making Alter an Advanced Skill...
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taking all the powers out of alter, to make them 'sense+alter, imo is doing force users a disservice, as they'd effectively need two force abilities then, to Use any 'alter' power.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Telekinesis & Time To Use Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Taking all the powers out of alter, to make them 'sense+alter, imo is doing force users a disservice, as they'd effectively need two force abilities then, to Use any 'alter' power.

All three of them? And two of the three alter-only powers are Dark Side powers. Most all powers that have an alter aspect in RAW are already in conjunction with one or both other Force skills.

And besides, every Jedi character is going to learn sense before alter, so they already have sense before they could learn Telekinesis anyway. We could move the Proximity modifier to sense and make the base difficulty Very Easy.

It really feels like your knee-jerk objection comes from a dogmatic adherence to RAW. 'Telekinesis should be alter-only just because it always has been' is not a convincing argument. WEG isn't perfect and they could have gotten it wrong at the very beginning.

Making Telekinesis a two-skill power isn't doing any "disservice" to Force user PCs. It's making Telekinesis more like the films, as discussed in this thread in 2018. And it makes sense that sense would be a part of moving things around remotely with the Force. Ask Yoda...
Quote:
YODA: Now... the stone. (Luke levitates the stone) Feel it.
...
YODA: You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you... me... the tree... the rock... everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that ship. (Yoda closes his eyes, levitates the submerged ship, and moves it to more solid land.)



CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
It occurred to me that an even better idea was to actually make Telekinesis a two-action power by making it a two-skill power: sense + alter. You've got to be able to feel the Force externally to make it move stuff around. The 'line of sight' bit in the rule doesn't really compute with the films because Yoda moved a mostly-submerged X-wing around with his eyes closed. Sense also being a part of Telekinesis makes sense.

Interesting. The main drawback I see is that the same argument could be applied to all of the other Alter Powers - Injure/Kill, Dark Side Web and Bolt of Hatred (although I haven't seen anything to make me think Bolt of Hatred exists apart from Force Lightning) - which would effectively strip Alter of all the powers in its portfolio, and only allow it to be used in combination with Sense or Control.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing...

RAW's alter "portfolio" is merely three powers, two of which PCs shouldn't ever learn (and one of those dubiously existing as a separate power anyway). I don't really see applying the same argument to any powers as a drawback, if they really should have sense as a factor.

Quote:
In fact, that may turn out to be a better option than what you suggested earlier about making Alter an Advanced Skill...

I don't see it as either/or. Alter can still be an advanced skill with this. In my rules having alter requires control and sense at 3D each, but it is possible to have those skills at a higher value and still not have alter at all. So you can have characters like Chirrut Îmwe who has The Force attribute (which comes with default skills control and sense) and not have the alter skill. Once you have alter, it starts at 1D and otherwise works as it normally does. The idea I'm sharing in this thread works equally with alter being an advanced skill or not.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Telekinesis & Time To Use Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
RAW's alter "portfolio" is merely three powers, two of which PCs shouldn't ever learn (and one of those dubiously existing as a separate power anyway). I don't really see applying the same argument to any powers as a drawback, if they really should have sense as a factor.

My "drawback" is mostly based on some House Rules and concepts I have that involve those two powers. With my Willpower rule, Injure/Kill has a Stun option, although with some risk to the user, and I've long been considering a Light Side counterpart to Dark Side Web that allows a Jedi to attack/entrap a Dark Sider with the Light Side of the Force. I might do something similar for Waves of Darkness, but haven't quite figured out what yet; I just like the concept of Jedi and Sith battling with manifestations of Light and Dark energy. The same TotJ comics that gave us Dark Side Web, Waves of Darkness and Bolt of Hatred also show Jedi using the Light to disrupt the Force abilities of Dark Siders, yet no attendant powers are included in the TotJ Companion.

Quote:
The idea I'm sharing in this thread works equally with alter being an advanced skill or not.

My problem with making Alter an Advanced Skill dovetails with my reasons for moving away from making Force Powers into Advanced Skills, specifically, that Alter as an Advanced Skill with Control and Sense as prerequisites would require either allowing Alter to stack with Control and/or Sense when those skills are being rolled, or making an exception to the Advanced Skill rules, which I dislike. Ultimately, I don't think making Alter an Advanced Skill is worth the hassle when there are other ways to keep it further out of reach.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 3:27 pm    Post subject: Alter Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
The idea I'm sharing in this thread works equally with alter being an advanced skill or not.

...allowing Alter to stack with Control and/or Sense when those skills are being rolled... which I dislike.

I also dislike that, so I don't do that.

CRMcNeill wrote:
...making an exception to the Advanced Skill rules..

It's not making an exception to the advanced skill rules if you change the advanced skill rules...

CRMcNeill wrote:
My problem with making Alter an Advanced Skill dovetails with my reasons for moving away from making Force Powers into Advanced Skills, specifically, that Alter as an Advanced Skill with Control and Sense as prerequisites would require either allowing Alter to stack with Control and/or Sense when those skills are being rolled, or making an exception to the Advanced Skill rules

Well, that's only if you dogmatically adhere to RAW's rules for advanced skills. I don't. In my version of advanced skills, prerequisite skill use doesn't automatically get the benefit of advanced skills.

On R&E p.29, Bill Smith wrote:
When a character uses a prerequisite skill, add the advanced skill to the prerequisite skill's roll.
Whill wrote:
When a character uses a prerequisite skill, the GM may allow you to add the advanced skill to the prerequisite skill's roll if the expertise of the advanced skill is applicable to the non-advanced action the character is attempting.

Some simply additions to an absolute RAW sentence make it subjective to GM discretion, and poof – dogma averted. Cool

CRMcNeill wrote:
Ultimately, I don't think making Alter an Advanced Skill is worth the hassle when there are other ways to keep it further out of reach.
Whill wrote:
In my rules having alter requires control and sense at 3D each, but it is possible to have those skills at a higher value and still not have alter at all. So you can have characters like Chirrut Îmwe who has The Force attribute (which comes with default skills control and sense) and not have the alter skill. Once you have alter, it starts at 1D and otherwise works as it normally does.

It's literally no hassle in my rules!
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