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Revamping Concentration
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
You mean roll 5 to run fast (x2) as base difficulty? I have not got into this yet...

It's on pg. 63, the first page of the Movement chapter. Basically, they adopted this system for character movement, but kept the four Speed Levels for vehicles.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

It's on pg. 63, the first page of the Movement chapter. Basically, they adopted this system for character movement, but kept the four Speed Levels for vehicles.


Oh, I see. Now I understand why cheetah (d6 Adventure creatures) has movement only 10 and running: 8D.

But returning to D6 Space. I checked these rules and on page 64 there is:
Maximum Movement: "Gamemasters may choose to limit the speed at which characters may travel to 4 times the Move rate for each type of movement. "
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In other words, a rule is applied to some creatures and not others in order for the universe to work. No, thank you. Best to have one coherent rule that works for everything.
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Pel
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These crazy movement rules make my head hurt. Almost makes me wish for the old die-based speed codes, which were silly, but way more intelligent than that cheetah example. At what point did the writers realize they were in a corner and just throw up their hands and hope nobody noticed?
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do agree that this speed rule does not fit the game - it's like everybody had access to burst of speed power..
Technically I would allow testing running skill for characters with same movement to see who is moving a little bit faster.

But what is good in it that you can make other actions while going all-out - this is my only update for RAW.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was the route I took with the Agility Skill, combining Running and Dodge. It still used the four basic Move levels, but allowed characters to move an extra meter at that Move level for every 5 points by which they beat the Difficulty.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the revision to All-Out being only 3 moves instead of 4?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
What about the revision to All-Out being only 3 moves instead of 4?

I'm on the fence. I can see the pros and cons of both sides.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
That was the route I took with the Agility Skill, combining Running and Dodge. It still used the four basic Move levels, but allowed characters to move an extra meter at that Move level for every 5 points by which they beat the Difficulty.


Good call on the extra distance. Most RPGs I'm familiar with have no provision for some characters being faster runners than others (running is usually a static multiple of the "walking" speed).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
I do agree that this speed rule does not fit the game - it's like everybody had access to burst of speed power..
Technically I would allow testing running skill for characters with same movement to see who is moving a little bit faster.

But what is good in it that you can make other actions while going all-out - this is my only update for RAW.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
What about the revision to All-Out being only 3 moves instead of 4?

I'm on the fence. I can see the pros and cons of both sides.


One of the stranger HR's i saw back in the days, was a DM who had it where 'if you made a difficult or higher running, your "All out speed" could be 4. Otherwise it was only 3x base. Same for vehicle/ship moves..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you compare real-world human running speeds, x3 @ All-Out doesn't actually make a lot of sense.

Consider a 100-meter dash. Per the RAW, a human with a Move of 10 can accelerate two Move Levels per round, or up to Cruising in the first round. I always figure that Preparing gives the character one additional Acceleration step, which takes it up to High Speed (20 meters for a character with a Move of 10).

In the following round, the character can accelerate to All-Out covering an additional 40 meters.

In the third and final round, the character is still moving at All-Out and covers an additional 40 meters, crossing the finish line in 15 seconds flat.

Of course, the world record for the 100-meter dash is 9.58 seconds, held by Usain Bolt. So, assuming Bolt is at the ragged edge of human running speed, a method must be found to shave off 5.42 seconds.

First off, the base Move can be increased. A star athlete likely has a base Move of 12, so using the formula above, he would cover 24 meters the first round, 48 meters the second, with just 28 left to cover in the third round. However, that only puts him around the 12.5-13 second mark.

That's where improving the Running skill (alongside my House Rule adding meters to Move distance based on degree of success) comes in. To make a 9.58-second 100 meter dash in accordance with the RAW, the runner would somehow have to come up with a total of 29-30 extra meters (as in, beat two consecutive Running skill rolls by a combined total of 150, against Very Easy Difficulty in the first round and Easy Difficulty in the second, assuming Very Easy terrain).

To generate those numbers requires a 10D or 11D in Running to have a decent chance of pulling it off without spending a Force Point.

I used to support the x3 @ All-Out method because I thought it better represented real-world human running speeds. But the math just doesn't add up.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, I like your Agility/run rules where the die roll can give you greater distance.

CRMcNeill wrote:
When you compare real-world human running speeds, x3 @ All-Out doesn't actually make a lot of sense.

Consider a 100-meter dash. Per the RAW, a human with a Move of 10 can accelerate two Move Levels per round, or up to Cruising in the first round. I always figure that Preparing gives the character one additional Acceleration step, which takes it up to High Speed (20 meters for a character with a Move of 10).

In the following round, the character can accelerate to All-Out covering an additional 40 meters.

In the third and final round, the character is still moving at All-Out and covers an additional 40 meters, crossing the finish line in 15 seconds flat.

Of course, the world record for the 100-meter dash is 9.58 seconds, held by Usain Bolt. So, assuming Bolt is at the ragged edge of human running speed, a method must be found to shave off 5.42 seconds.

First off, the base Move can be increased. A star athlete likely has a base Move of 12, so using the formula above, he would cover 24 meters the first round, 48 meters the second, with just 28 left to cover in the third round. However, that only puts him around the 12.5-13 second mark.

That's where improving the Running skill (alongside my House Rule adding meters to Move distance based on degree of success) comes in. To make a 9.58-second 100 meter dash in accordance with the RAW, the runner would somehow have to come up with a total of 29-30 extra meters (as in, beat two consecutive Running skill rolls by a combined total of 150, against Very Easy Difficulty in the first round and Easy Difficulty in the second, assuming Very Easy terrain).

To generate those numbers requires a 10D or 11D in Running to have a decent chance of pulling it off without spending a Force Point.

Being a math nerd I appreciate the methodology here, but using Bolt's record sprint as a basis for the game system is problematic in multiple ways.

First of all, the purpose of the game system is to simulate character actions in the cinematic reality of the Star Wars. We are talking chasing a thief through a space station, running through a jungle with monsters chasing you, etc. We're not simulating straight-path timed foot races outside of any action. That's a controlled laboratory-environment for character speed that should never really come up in the game. If any GM is using the game system to race characters in this way, I don't want anywhere near that boring game.

And real life foot races in dry flat terrain won't have the level of randomness that comes from rolling dice, even at the speeds of those athletic levels. In real life genetics and physical training would be the main factors in people just being faster than others. Things like choice of shoes could make minor difference, but we are talking fractions of seconds. I don't see these things as that applicable to D6.

This exercise assumes a round is exactly or very close to 5 seconds. When in the game a round is actually a more vague unit being about 1-5 seconds. This is even more vague than space move units which are relative to each other. The same encounter may have rounds of various length of time. It is just the amount of time that it takes everything to happen in that round, a way of sectioning off groups of nearly simultaneous actions for MAP purposes. It wouldn't be very cinematic for starting PCs and mooks to have a firefight if they are all taking one shot each per round and the round actually must take the full five seconds. Boring. You do all the actions and if it would only take a couple seconds, it does and you immediately move on to next round.

Even with 5-second rounds, Bolt's record runs do not conform to D6 acceleration rules. Take a look at the web page below for a very basic mathematical analysis of them. In 5 seconds he is already very near his max speed around 12 m/s. He hits his max speed at around 7 seconds and then starts to slow back down. If Bolt in your example gets transported to the Star Wars game universe, his one-round running distance would suck compared to running for two rounds. In real life, his 5-second distance isn't going to be that far off from his 10-second running distance.

http://blogs.ucdavis.edu/egghead/2016/08/23/calculating-just-how-fast-usain-bolt-runs/

Aside from the lesser randomness of real life to D6, the game system just wasn't designed to take the very best "peak of human ability" into account because it doesn't need to. I view all of the game stat maximums to only cover 99.9% of the characters. There could be some very rare humans with a Move greater than 12, but chances are very slim they would ever appear in the game. The game system just doesn't need to account for these extreme individuals in extremely controlled situations.

As I always say, the Star Wars game system only has to simulate original characters having adventures that could take place in the same reality of the Star Wars films. The game system does not need to take every real world scenario into consideration to do this. Even the RAW movement rules as-is successful accomplish being able to tell stories that seem like they could take place in the SWU. Star Wars verisimilitude is the goal of the game.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I used to support the x3 @ All-Out method because I thought it better represented real-world human running speeds. But the math just doesn't add up.

I haven't looked at it or thought about it in a while, but as I recall my attraction to the x3 All-Out was the way the difficulties increase. It just seemed a huge jump to go from x2 to x4.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, if someone were to ask me to write out game stats for a professional sprinter of Bolt's caliber, a base Move of 12 and 11D in Running would not be amiss.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I haven't looked at it or thought about it in a while, but as I recall my attraction to the x3 All-Out was the way the difficulties increase. It just seemed a huge jump to go from x2 to x4.

I seem to recall you being on the opposite side of that issue, that you liked that each Move Level was twice that of the level below it.

An alternate possibility would be to make All-Out x3, but then allow the character to increase the multiple by 1 step for every 10 points by which he beat the terrain Difficulty. For instance, a runner at All-Out on Very Easy Terrain has to beat an Easy Running roll to succeed. If he beats the Easy roll by 10 or more, his All-Out multiplier jumps up to x4; by 20 or more, to x5, by 30 or more, to x6 and so on.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
I haven't looked at it or thought about it in a while, but as I recall my attraction to the x3 All-Out was the way the difficulties increase. It just seemed a huge jump to go from x2 to x4.

I seem to recall you being on the opposite side of that issue, that you liked that each Move Level was twice that of the level below it.

An alternate possibility would be to make All-Out x3, but then allow the character to increase the multiple by 1 step for every 10 points by which he beat the terrain Difficulty. For instance, a runner at All-Out on Very Easy Terrain has to beat an Easy Running roll to succeed. If he beats the Easy roll by 10 or more, his All-Out multiplier jumps up to x4; by 20 or more, to x5, by 30 or more, to x6 and so on.

I didn't feel real strongly either way, but here is my last post from your All-Out thread in late August 2018. I acknowledge I had previously liked the mathematical elegance of doubling each level, but was open to a possible update to x3 with the necessary rewording of the Movement rules.

https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=184530#184530
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