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Shields
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where? Where do we see them? They're effectively invisible in the first three films. How exactly does the graphic seen on the screen in the cockpit of the Millennium Falcon not say "angling the deflector shields" against the attack vector of a strafing TIE Fighter, but does say, "oh, he's just adjusting power levels"? Seriously, because I really get the feeling you're overreaching here. The RAW has already established that there are two types of shields, and that one is effectively part of the Hull; the shields on Anakin's fighter are just as likely to be his fighter's particle shields than its deflector shields.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you see them when they turn on.
as with anakin in the droid ship.

His ship gets a momntary shroud of transperent "something" this being the shields.

on the capital ships this is best seen with collitions and seeing how ships disintegrate as if hitting a wall BEFORE they hit the hull, even when going indise other hangars they hit shields and vaporise wthout actually impacting the hull.

However all sheilds can be penetrated and not every bolt seems to be deflected
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, the one's on Anakin's fighter could just as easily be his particle / navigation shields, not his deflectors. The only other clear example of shield use was on the Raddus during the stern chase in TLJ.

And you haven't answered my question as to how what Chewbacca was doing in the Falcon's cockpit wasn't "angling the deflectors", but was "shifting the power."
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Again, the one's on Anakin's fighter could just as easily be his particle / navigation shields, not his deflectors. The only other clear example of shield use was on the Raddus during the stern chase in TLJ.

And you haven't answered my question as to how what Chewbacca was doing in the Falcon's cockpit wasn't "angling the deflectors", but was "shifting the power."


I would argue he angled the shields, actively using his shild skill to ensure shiled integrity and enough power in the direction of the attack.

BTW, I think we do see a landed ship in on of the prequals that is fully enshrouded in a shiled, so the tech is there.

So if the shields are 2D, he can alokate this to the arch at a cost of another.

Front 2D+2 rear 1D+1 etc, this will allow him to actively use the skill as both a reaction and a controlled action, like we see him maybe do ( he could be helping piloting, navigating, even i would argue helping with fire control, depending on cockpit controls)

Beathing difficulty thresholds simply allows you to get the shileds up faster.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Shields Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
I ask because the example makes it seem like she is turning on the shields preemptively before even being fired at, allocating it all to the back because that is the arc the TIEs are in. If so then the Starship Shields skill can be but isn't always a reaction skill.
...
I'm of the 'both action and reaction' interpretation, but I thought I would ask how others may have interpreted it since Starship Shields is labeled as a "reaction skill". How do you interpret RAW?

I've always seen it as being both. Set as you are entering combat, but if more than 1 arc's being covered the shield D value is split. OR as a reaction to 'shift over' what arc you want covered.

Thanks.

garhkal wrote:
If you pre-emptively bring them up your bonus is that you don't have to worry about MAPS.

That was my reasoning. Or probably less MAPs anyway, depending on what else you are doing when you set them.

It makes the most sense to me that there would have to be a default shield dice arc setting when you first turn on your shields, to then have something to decide if you want to change from or just leave it as is.

Regarding the observation about ships with shields seeming to have shields all the way around and not only in certain arcs, a simple tweak to RAW to better represent that would be that the shield dice can be split up into pips for the allocation instead of whole Ds only. So your ship with 2D in shields? It could be that when you turn on the shields, by default it is +2 shields in each of the 4 arcs. Then in combat you can shift them around.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:

So if the shields are 2D, he can alokate this to the arch at a cost of another.

Front 2D+2 rear 1D+1 etc, this will allow him to actively use the skill as both a reaction and a controlled action, like we see him maybe do ( he could be helping piloting, navigating, even i would argue helping with fire control, depending on cockpit controls)

Beathing difficulty thresholds simply allows you to get the shileds up faster.


Actually he couldn't, as he would have to split that 2d up into both arcs to protect. So he could do 1d+2 rear, +1 front, or 1d+1 rear, +2 front, or 1d in both arcs...

Whill wrote:

It makes the most sense to me that there would have to be a default shield dice arc setting when you first turn on your shields, to then have something to decide if you want to change from or just leave it as is.

Regarding the observation about ships with shields seeming to have shields all the way around and not only in certain arcs, a simple tweak to RAW to better represent that would be that the shield dice can be split up into pips for the allocation instead of whole Ds only. So your ship with 2D in shields? It could be that when you turn on the shields, by default it is +2 shields in each of the 4 arcs. Then in combat you can shift them around.


As a Dm i've allowed people to set up one (and in some cases) multiple 'defaults'. Such as with one group which had a 3d shield generator (the highest by book one can get) on their freighter. They had a Primary setting of 2d rear, 1d front. A secondary setting of +2 rear, +2 front, +2 right, +2 left, +2 top and +2 bottom. And a third setting (for when they did ground fights) of 1d front, 1d bottom and 1d rear...

Just pressing 1 button set it, where the Shield skill roll +5 difficulty, was used to SET THE pre-sets. Moving shields around after, required a reaction roll of their shields to do anything.
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Red 331
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:45 am    Post subject: Angle the Deflector Shields Reply with quote

Hm. I think I have a little different interpretation of the RAW for shields. Which probably means I'm wrong. Smile

I think most of the previous discussion is implying that the shields reaction roll is made just to "shift" the fire arc. In other words, your roll just determines if you successfully flip the switches to the right arc. If you make the roll, you're able to flip the switches. If not, you don't.

I think I have a different interpretation of the RAW. The rolls aren't made to see if you can successfully flip the switches between a binary "on" or "off". The rolls are used to determine if your reaction for whatever arcs you're dealing with are successful. That's why using shields is ALWAYS a reaction.

It's like when Han tells Chewie to "angle the deflector shields" - anybody can change the fire arc settings to "double-front", for example - but the reaction shields roll tells you whether you're able to successfully angle the deflectors across that particular arc or arcs. That's why the difficulty level is increased when you're handling multiple arcs - you're trying to angle the shields separately within each of those arcs.

So you may have the shields on double front, but you may still not angle them correctly within that arc to successfully apply the shields to a given attack made on the front of your ship (if you miss your roll). I think the RAW are implying that the shields must be angled WITHIN a particular arc to successfully shield an attack. In other words, I think the RAW is implying your shields can't cover an ENTIRE fire arc - even if you have enough shield die to cover all four arcs. You still have to angle them within the arcs.

But, like I said, I'm probably wrong. I didn't get enough sleep last night. Smile
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Red 331
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judging by the deafening silence, clearly - I'm off my rocker. Smile
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're not off your rocker. It's definitely not clear cut in RAW which is why I posted this thread. RAW labels the skill as a "reaction skill".

However the problem I have with your interpretation is that if Shields is reaction-only, then there is no point in ever setting your deflectors on "double front". Setting the shields on full front then reestablishing rear shield coverage (as the dialogue of ANH indicates the rebel starfighters can do) would be meaningless for the reaction-only interpretation where you can only angle the defector shields live as the attacks occur, from multiple fire arcs.

But if your way works for you and your game, great.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
You're not off your rocker. It's definitely not clear cut in RAW which is why I posted this thread. RAW labels the skill as a "reaction skill".

However the problem I have with your interpretation is that if Shields is reaction-only, then there is no point in ever setting your deflectors on "double front". Setting the shields on full front then reestablishing rear shield coverage (as the dialogue of ANH indicates the rebel starfighters can do) would be meaningless for the reaction-only interpretation where you can only angle the defector shields live as the attacks occur, from multiple fire arcs.

But if your way works for you and your game, great.



If we use shields as reaction only, when actively used the rules work.
Setting them to something like "double front" now takes for granted a front arch attack tactics, with deployed shields and thus negating the need for the shield operator to actively use the shiled (reaction skill), and is now freed up to act as gunner, engineer, co pilot etc.

With another shiled setting or a diversion from the tactics or a surprise attack can again force a reaction skill to move the shiled to deflect this "new" attack.


so by simply setting an arch beforhand you free up the shield operator until either you need to change shield arch or you need to react to to attacks from unshielded arch etc.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
If we use shields as reaction only, when actively used the rules work.
Setting them to something like "double front" now takes for granted a front arch attack tactics, with deployed shields and thus negating the need for the shield operator to actively use the shiled (reaction skill), and is now freed up to act as gunner, engineer, co pilot etc.

With another shiled setting or a diversion from the tactics or a surprise attack can again force a reaction skill to move the shiled to deflect this "new" attack.


so by simply setting an arch beforhand you free up the shield operator until either you need to change shield arch or you need to react to to attacks from unshielded arch etc.

If I read you correctly, yes that's what I was thinking would make the most sense with respect to RAW. You can proactively set the shields to whatever arc coverage you want, and the reaction aspect of shields only enters when an attack comes in to an arc you want more shield defense for, you react to see if you switch them over in time before the attack comes. If you fail, the shields are still set for whatever arc(s) they had been before the attack. Or if you are good with the current setting as-is and want to focus on other things, you can not react and just let the current shield setting apply to any attacks that hit.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm mulling over a concept of using Shield Dice as a form of steerable cover, almost like a hand-held combat shield for a character. I keep running into obstacles as to how to apply it, though. Any realistic rule I come up with just ends up being too complicated, with three or more steps and two different charts to determine the strength and percentage of cover.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
If we use shields as reaction only, when actively used the rules work.
Setting them to something like "double front" now takes for granted a front arch attack tactics, with deployed shields and thus negating the need for the shield operator to actively use the shiled (reaction skill), and is now freed up to act as gunner, engineer, co pilot etc.

With another shiled setting or a diversion from the tactics or a surprise attack can again force a reaction skill to move the shiled to deflect this "new" attack.


so by simply setting an arch beforhand you free up the shield operator until either you need to change shield arch or you need to react to to attacks from unshielded arch etc.

If I read you correctly, yes that's what I was thinking would make the most sense with respect to RAW. You can proactively set the shields to whatever arc coverage you want, and the reaction aspect of shields only enters when an attack comes in to an arc you want more shield defense for, you react to see if you switch them over in time before the attack comes. If you fail, the shields are still set for whatever arc(s) they had been before the attack. Or if you are good with the current setting as-is and want to focus on other things, you can not react and just let the current shield setting apply to any attacks that hit.



Exactly what i ws thinking
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something I've wondered about the Shields RAW is how the dice stacking compares to the various Coordination Rules.

What I mean is, Shield Dice are treated as a Dice Pool that can be split between the four fire arcs, or can be combined all in one. So if, say, a ship has 3D in Shields, it can put all 3D in one arc, put 2D in one arc and 1D in another, or put 1D each in three different arcs. But per the 2E and later iterations of the coordination rules, you don't get a straight +2D modifier for combining three 1D dice values.

Per the 2E Rules (see Combined Action Bonus Tables on pg. 69 of the 2E Rulebook), combining three shields would only get a +1D bonus, or at most, a +1D+2 bonus instead of +2D for combining four shields.

Per the 2R&E Rules (page 83), combining three 1D shields would only get a +1D bonus.

So, per the way Shields are described, it would seem that it isn't a single shield of a set value, but rather multiple shields that can be combined together to create a better defense. However, under the 2R&E Rules, a B-Wing with 2D Shields should only be able to get a +1 bonus to its Shields by combining them in the same arc.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Something I've wondered about the Shields RAW is how the dice stacking compares to the various Coordination Rules.

What I mean is, Shield Dice are treated as a Dice Pool that can be split between the four fire arcs, or can be combined all in one. So if, say, a ship has 3D in Shields, it can put all 3D in one arc, put 2D in one arc and 1D in another, or put 1D each in three different arcs. But per the 2E and later iterations of the coordination rules, you don't get a straight +2D modifier for combining three 1D dice values.

Per the 2E Rules (see Combined Action Bonus Tables on pg. 69 of the 2E Rulebook), combining three shields would only get a +1D bonus, or at most, a +1D+2 bonus instead of +2D for combining four shields.

Per the 2R&E Rules (page 83), combining three 1D shields would only get a +1D bonus.

So, per the way Shields are described, it would seem that it isn't a single shield of a set value, but rather multiple shields that can be combined together to create a better defense. However, under the 2R&E Rules, a B-Wing with 2D Shields should only be able to get a +1 bonus to its Shields by combining them in the same arc.


The way i read is that is that every sho has their shield dice as a bese default, to me this is the default on all archs.

2D shiels is 2D to every arch, with the "power surplus" as in the power relay rules, 2every ship can have 2D+2 of power simply "running around in the system" and thses can then be used to boost the shiled arch as a reaction skill, ot for weapons and sensors apply to those.

So a successful skill allows you to boost the shield arch with uptp 2D+2 minus what ever is sed for other systems.
Maybe a TN to how much you manage to squeeze out to the arch with your roll result
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