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Power Routing (for freighters)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Random thought w/r/t some of the technobabble used in space battles in the first film...

I've already come up with possible explanations for exactly what is meant by "angling" or "stabilizing", and the concept behind switching power has been well covered by now, but I had difficulty coming up with an explanation for "locking in the auxiliary power."

Here's what I'm thinking: the Auxiliary Power system is fitted with automated cut-outs to protect the system from harmful power surges (effectively, a high-tech power strip / circuit breaker system). This normally limits a ship to a maximum of 1D in power boost to a given system, and attempting to go over that will engage the automated cut-outs. However, if in an emergency the crew wishes to feed dangerous levels of power to a system, they must first bypass the automated cut-outs, thus "locking in" the increased power such that it can't automatically disengage. While this can provide a much needed boost in emergencies, it's potentially dangerous as power surges can cause damage to systems if the automated cut-outs can't protect it.

Just a thought...
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Random thought w/r/t some of the technobabble used in space battles in the first film...

I've already come up with possible explanations for exactly what is meant by "angling" or "stabilizing", and the concept behind switching power has been well covered by now, but I had difficulty coming up with an explanation for "locking in the auxiliary power."

Here's what I'm thinking: the Auxiliary Power system is fitted with automated cut-outs to protect the system from harmful power surges (effectively, a high-tech power strip / circuit breaker system). This normally limits a ship to a maximum of 1D in power boost to a given system, and attempting to go over that will engage the automated cut-outs. However, if in an emergency the crew wishes to feed dangerous levels of power to a system, they must first bypass the automated cut-outs, thus "locking in" the increased power such that it can't automatically disengage. While this can provide a much needed boost in emergencies, it's potentially dangerous as power surges can cause damage to systems if the automated cut-outs can't protect it.

Just a thought...

I like it. And it makes sense with the comprehensive house rule I created.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Power Routing for Space Transports

I updated the rule to include the additional skills being used.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Random thought: one possible drawback to keep ships from using Auxiliary Power all the time would be that using it also increases the ship's sensor signature. Basically, for every 1D of Auxiliary Power in use, apply a +1D bonus to Sensors to detect the ship (with some exceptions for non-emitting systems like Stealth or Passive Sensors).

Another twist would be to allow other ships to detect exactly what system the Auxiliary Power is being applied to.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Power Routing for Space Transports

CRMcNeill wrote:
Random thought: one possible drawback to keep ships from using Auxiliary Power all the time would be that using it also increases the ship's sensor signature. Basically, for every 1D of Auxiliary Power in use, apply a +1D bonus to Sensors to detect the ship (with some exceptions for non-emitting systems like Stealth or Passive Sensors).

That's quite reasonable, but it wouldn't come into play that much because Auxiliary Power isn't normally important outside of combat and other urgent situations (not stealth situations so much). I can see if a ship is pouring on the speed to get/stay out of sensor range of another ship.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Another twist would be to allow other ships to detect exactly what system the Auxiliary Power is being applied to.

That's not unreasonable, but as-is this seems to betray your usual MO that nothing is outright automatic or forbidden. Shouldn't there be a chance that which system benefiting from Aux Power remains undetected? Maybe an opposing sensor roll vs. the roll to use successfully shift power?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it wouldn't be automatic, just an additional facet of an Identified result on a Sensors roll. The Sensor Operator would still have to roll pretty well to acquire this info, but it would be another option for the GM to fill in the fluff on a combat scene by describing what enemy ship X is preparing to do (shoot, dodge, run, etc).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Whill, I may have mentioned this elsewhere, but what would you say to having Auxiliary Power be necessary to perform Full Actions, such as traveling at All-Out Speed or making a Full Dodge. Since both have to be declared at the beginning of the round (at the same time one would declare power distribution), maybe make it so that traveling All-Out requires putting Auxiliary Power to Engines, and making a Full Dodge requires putting it to Maneuverability.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Hey Whill, I may have mentioned this elsewhere, but what would you say to having Auxiliary Power be necessary to perform Full Actions, such as traveling at All-Out Speed or making a Full Dodge. Since both have to be declared at the beginning of the round (at the same time one would declare power distribution), maybe make it so that traveling All-Out requires putting Auxiliary Power to Engines, and making a Full Dodge requires putting it to Maneuverability.

First of all, I want to thank you for taking an interest in my house rule after all this time, especially in light of you not being a big fan of it in the first place. I have given it some thought and I think what you are saying makes a lot of sense. I already thought of Aux Power Generators as a 'retcon' of a sort. This is not just some new item you can purchase, install on your ship, and then use. If a GM incorporates this house rule, the very premise of it is that all space transports all already have it whether you take full advantage of it or not. If all transports have it, then this can be what can makes All-Out and Full Evade possible. It should be, because I don't see getting the benefit of boosting your Space with Aux Power and moving four times the ship's Space. In fact, I was considering lowering All-Out to only a max of three times the move score instead of four times, but this helps me accept RAW's All-Out easier (for space transports anyway), by it requiring the Aux Power Generator which restricts it from benefiting any other system. To update this rule there are other things to address.

Since Aux Power transfers can use the space transports skill and the All-Out difficulty is higher, if power is currently routed to a different system I can see just folding the aux power transfer into the All-Out piloting roll (obviously the space transport repair skill would not be an option for this use of aux power, and the transfer can't be done by character other than the pilot). Success means the power is transferred to engines and there are no movement failures, as per RAW. If the movement roll fails but the roll still beats an easy difficulty, then the power is transferred (for future power/action considerations), but there is a movement failure occurs as per RAW.

If the aux power is currently routed to another system when the pilot wants to perform a full evade, the power transfer can likewise be folded into the pilot's full reaction roll (so likewise it has to be the space transports skill and performed by the pilot), but in this case the easy difficulty of the transfer aspect of the action would have be rolled, and then whatever the roll is it adds to attacker difficulties as in RAW. If power is already routed to Maneuverability when the pilot rolls the full reaction, then there is no difficulty to beat and it just works completely as in RAW.

Is that along the lines of what you were thinking?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
First of all, I want to thank you for taking an interest in my house rule after all this time, especially in light of you not being a big fan of it in the first place.

Well, not liking an idea isn't the same as not being allowed to offer helpful suggestions where applicable. I think the idea works well with both your version and mine, so I thought I'd mention it.

Very Happy

Quote:
Is that along the lines of what you were thinking?

Essentially, yes. In my more simplistic version, the power transfer to the appropriate system would be automatic, but during either a Full Dodge or moving at All-Out, the Auxiliary Power would be automatically allocated to either Drives or Maneuvering, depending.

Another wrinkle to consider would be ships with more than 1D of Auxiliary Power. Would a ship with 2D of Power and a Space of 6 be able to use 1D to go All-Out, and the other 1D to increase his base Space to 8?

Also, what would you say happens when a ship shifts Auxiliary Power to Hyperdrives? How would that extra power be expressed in terms of multiplier / jump duration / whatever?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Well, not liking an idea isn't the same as not being allowed to offer helpful suggestions where applicable. I think the idea works well with both your version and mine, so I thought I'd mention it.

Very Happy

Quote:
...Is that along the lines of what you were thinking?

Essentially, yes. In my more simplistic version, the power transfer to the appropriate system would be automatic, but during either a Full Dodge or moving at All-Out, the Auxiliary Power would be automatically allocated to either Drives or Maneuvering, depending.

OK, in your version the power transfer is is automatic, and in my version it is easy.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Another wrinkle to consider would be ships with more than 1D of Auxiliary Power. Would a ship with 2D of Power and a Space of 6 be able to use 1D to go All-Out, and the other 1D to increase his base Space to 8?

My rule was designed for smaller freighters that only have 1D, but it does actually address this question: "Some ships larger than light freighters may have larger and multiple auxiliary power generators, but no single system may utilize more than 1D of Auxiliary Power at a time." But my rule for small freighters does include Power Control which can route up to 2D total to one system, with the first 1D coming from aux power and the rest coming from another system, which involves more difficulty and risk. For that it does indicate a 2D bonus to speed would be +4 Space.

With this mod of All-Out requiring Aux Power just to work as it does in RAW, my initial thinking that you could also transfer 1D in power from another system to get +2 to the Space.

The RAW capital ship rule that partially inspired my house rule does not have speed boosting at all. I see that I got that from your starfighter aux power house rule. Thinking about All-Out made me think about the math involved the speed boosts because High Speed and All-Out are integral multiples of the ship's Space stat, which would mean that the Space bonus would also be multiplied x2 for High Speed.

Below is a chart for a YT-1300 with Space: 4. The columns are the four movement speeds, and the rows are for no extra power, +1D in aux power (+2), and +2D in power total, with the stipulation that 1D aux is needed just to go All-Out as in RAW. The results are of course total space units of the move.

Code:
  Ca Cr HS AO
0D 2  4  8  -
1D 3  6 12 16
2D 4  8 16 24

Not allowing All-Out to get the +2 from aux power does cap out the All-Out at RAW with aux power only, but the +2 from power control really adds a lot of space units to the move. And even High Speed benefits a lot when you are adding the speed boost to Space first and then multiplying by 2.

The equivalence of 1D to +2 comes from the 1e to 2e vehicle conversion rules in Blue Vader (which was based on Star Warriors ship stats). But in 1e and Blue Vader 2e movement rules, there is no multiplication. In Blue Vader 2e you could move up to four moves, and each move was the ship's Space score, but you rolled for each move action. That was changed in R&E to eliminate rolls, so we just had the terrain difficulties modified by speed and one roll.

I get that adding the bonus speed first then multiplying it still works out the same for High Speed as '2 moves' would in Blue Vader, but I guess I am questioning the +2 multiplying or adding more than once, and also the added complexity of calculating what would be the best option. Looking at the YT-1300 chart you get the same total space units going all-out (which requires aux power by default) and routing another 1D of power on top of aux power and only going high speed, which has a lower movement difficulty.

Should the boost in speed just be in flat space units on top of after the multiplication (but still not add to All-Out)? If it still should be multiplied, another option is to only make it +1 to Space per 1D in extra power.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Also, what would you say happens when a ship shifts Auxiliary Power to Hyperdrives? How would that extra power be expressed in terms of multiplier / jump duration / whatever?

I never thought about routing more power to hyperdrive. My rule states, "Auxiliary power is normally safe but not meant to be used continually, so it is usually only used for combat, to escape combat, or for other emergency situations. At GM discretion, if the auxiliary power generator is used continuously for too long it may become damaged." RAW states traveling at All-Out continuously requires Hull rolls with increasing difficulty every 10 minutes for the engine to not suffer damage. By RAW, hyperspace journeys are at least an hour, so I do not see running Aux Power the whole time to get a big benefit. If anything, maybe a small benefit if power is routed there for the jump itself, like arriving at your destination 10 minutes early.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The example that springs to mind is from Dark Force Rising, where Mara Jade is aboard a Victory-Class SD that is taking her to rendezvous with Grand Admiral Thrawn.
    There was similarly no way of knowing where they were going, but from the labored sound of the engines, she could guess they were pushing uncomfortably far past a Victory Star Destroyer's normal flank speed of Point Four Five. Possibly even as high as Point Five, which would mean they were covering a hundred twenty-seven light-years per hour.
It would make sense that, if a ship was being pushed beyond its normal limits - whether in real space or hyperspace - then it would be natural to require the routing of Auxiliary Power. It would also make sense to apply the Long Distance Movement rules to factor in potential damage to the ship from pushing itself too hard for too long, but I digress.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The example that springs to mind is from Dark Force Rising, where Mara Jade is aboard a Victory-Class SD that is taking her to rendezvous with Grand Admiral Thrawn.
    There was similarly no way of knowing where they were going, but from the labored sound of the engines, she could guess they were pushing uncomfortably far past a Victory Star Destroyer's normal flank speed of Point Four Five. Possibly even as high as Point Five, which would mean they were covering a hundred twenty-seven light-years per hour.
It would make sense that, if a ship was being pushed beyond its normal limits - whether in real space or hyperspace - then it would be natural to require the routing of Auxiliary Power. It would also make sense to apply the Long Distance Movement rules to factor in potential damage to the ship from pushing itself too hard for too long, but I digress.

Zahn was trying to make sense out of Han's statement about the Falcon's speed and put it into terms that make sense to the reader's real world experience. We have miles per hour (civilized countries have kilometers per hour), so he explained "Point Five past lightspeed" as a constant amount of lightyears per hour. There are a couple problems with applying this to the game. Actual distances between star systems are rarely ever established so ly per hour is effectively meaningless. We also don't know the speed of most ships in this system.

WEG devised a system inspired by Han's statements about how calculations were important to avoid the dangers of FTL. Our base hyperdrive engine speeds are duration multipliers and there's nothing that correlates to Zahn's system. The premise of hyperspace travel in the game is that in addition to distance, durations are based on how well known the course is and safety. Faster courses are faster because the dangers are well known and it is relatively safe to travel that fast. Slower courses are slower because the dangers are less known and it is safer to travel that slow. Our option to shorten the journey increase the danger and thus the difficulty of plotting a safe journey, and conversely our option to lengthen the journey reduce the danger and difficulty. Speed is a variable based the level of safety so at what point is you engine better pushed to its limits?

And what about the rest of my last post? Should the boost in sublight speed from aux power just be in flat space units on top of after the multiplication (but still not add to All-Out)? If it still should be multiplied, another option is to only make it +1 to Space per 1D in extra power.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Speed is a variable based the level of safety so at what point is you engine better pushed to its limits?

I'm not sure there's a particularly good analogy for this, but the image that comes to mind is driving on a mountain road that has to twist and turn to follow the contours of the terrain. Under those circumstances, a vehicle with a faster engine will be better able to accelerate to take advantage of straight stretches. For cars, better brakes are also important, as they allow the car to stay at speed longer before having to slow down going into a turn.

Because of the limitations of the Hyperdrive Multiplier system, a Multiplier is best thought of as an aggregate of the various factors affecting how quickly a ship can travel, not just in terms of speed, but in ability to negotiate course changes. Irrespective of the method used to represent this, I submit that the technobabble explanation should be that "Auxiliary Power to Hyperdrive" doesn't just represent a boost in speed, but also a boost in handling and responsiveness during mid-jump course changes.

Now, whether that increase should take the form of a Multiplier being shifted up a step, or a reduction in travel times is something I haven't really put a lot of thought into.

Quote:
Should the boost in sublight speed from aux power just be in flat space units on top of after the multiplication (but still not add to All-Out)? If it still should be multiplied, another option is to only make it +1 to Space per 1D in extra power.

My first thought would be a mixed system; allow the ship to use Auxiliary Power to boost its Space rating when traveling at Cautious, Cruise or Full Speed, but then make it revert to its listed Space when traveling at All-Out. Any additional available Power could then also be diverted to the engines, allowing an increase in Space and the ability to move at All-Out, but at the potential cost of the engines taking damage as described in the rest of the rules.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
Speed is a variable based the level of safety so at what point is you engine better pushed to its limits?

I'm not sure there's a particularly good analogy for this, but the image that comes to mind is driving on a mountain road that has to twist and turn to follow the contours of the terrain. Under those circumstances, a vehicle with a faster engine will be better able to accelerate to take advantage of straight stretches. For cars, better brakes are also important, as they allow the car to stay at speed longer before having to slow down going into a turn.

Because of the limitations of the Hyperdrive Multiplier system, a Multiplier is best thought of as an aggregate of the various factors affecting how quickly a ship can travel, not just in terms of speed, but in ability to negotiate course changes. Irrespective of the method used to represent this, I submit that the technobabble explanation should be that "Auxiliary Power to Hyperdrive" doesn't just represent a boost in speed, but also a boost in handling and responsiveness during mid-jump course changes.

That's a pretty good analogy and you expressed what I hadn't yet found a way to articulate, so thanks! Last night I went through the all the ships in the RP Starship Stats document to find that the slowest backup hyperdrive multiplier was x25. I started to make a chart with inverted Hyperdrive multipliers as decimal values to try to visually see the relationship between them to make a sensible rule but I just got sleepy and went to bed.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Now, whether that increase should take the form of a Multiplier being shifted up a step, or a reduction in travel times is something I haven't really put a lot of thought into.

This is where I think we will diverge (again). I don't think Aux Power should be able to run for the length of a hyperspace journey, so I'm thinking any boost from it should be a very small one, and that aux power would have to be routed there before the jump so the navicomputer can completely take the initial boost into effect. Multipliers shifts would be huge differences at the speeds most ships travel (x2 or x1) so that is just out of the question for me. But thanks for giving me another effect to consider for the rule.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Quote:
Should the boost in sublight speed from aux power just be in flat space units on top after the multiplication (but still not add to All-Out)? If it still should be multiplied, another option is to only make it +1 to Space per 1D in extra power.

My first thought would be a mixed system; allow the ship to use Auxiliary Power to boost its Space rating when traveling at Cautious, Cruise or Full Speed, but then make it revert to its listed Space when traveling at All-Out. Any additional available Power could then also be diverted to the engines, allowing an increase in Space and the ability to move at All-Out, but at the potential cost of the engines taking damage as described in the rest of the rules.

That's what I put down. I'm still not sure, but thanks for the feedback.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if running auxiliary power to the hyperdrive caused the entire unit to need to be replaced? Or at least enough repairs to repair a heavily damaged one? This way, you can push your hyperdrive, but your ship's engineer is going to be cursing the day you were born while he's having to rebuild or replace the entire unit.
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