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Droids as a species
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:33 am    Post subject: Droids as a species Reply with quote

EDIT/New Intro: The game system and character game stats use the human standard as a basis. The game system doesn't need to say humans need to breath, sleep, and eat, or bother defining human abilities such as the light spectrum they can see and sound frequency range they can hear. The game doesn't have to because the GM and players of the games are all humans. Aliens are differentiated by comparison to humans, and "special" abilities are abilities different than the human norm. Droids are even more different than humans, but I've noticed that a lot of these differences aren't defined in droid character. Can droids swim, even at default to attribute? Shouldn't the differences in droid abilities be defined somewhere?


Let's consider what qualities droids as if they were written up a species in the WEG Star Wars D6 RPG. As Droid PCs, Shard PCs, and even NPCs.

Below is from the FFG game. It says droids do not need to eat, sleep, or breath. They can have personal equipment integrated with their systems in the form of attachments. Of course they cannot be Force-users, but they are immune to mind-affecting Force powers.

They are unaffected by toxins and poisons. They cannot receive the benefits of bacta, first aid, medicine, but they can be repaired. They can heal in a way - Droids were created to have a limited self-repairing ability. I really like that idea. I seem to remember reading that in a very old source, perhaps the original SW novelization after Threepio's arm got severed?

What else? Droids may not need to eat or drink but they do need periodically recharged. Droids may not sleep per se but can go into stand-by/sleep mode which conserves power but maybe also reboots, and runs system-scans and virus checks, etc. Droids may be susceptible to ion weapons, but they may be immune to blaster stun settings. Droids would not seem to have quite the same sensitivities to heat and cold that humans and similar species have. Droids can survive in the vacuum of space, at least for short periods of time.

Artoo survived being submerged in water. Can droids in general swim? Can droids even float on water? Any limitations for other skills? What else?


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Pel
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a lot to chew on, but well worth consideration.

I think droids are pretty solid, if not necessarily all that heavy, and so they wouldn't float without some design changes or an add on flotation package. They don't seem to short out in the rain or when submerged so other than increasing their maintenance frequency, I don't see any barriers to underwater operations. Same with working in a vacuum.

For a common language, they can probably all understand the binary language Threepio mentions to Uncle Owen and most seem to understand basic.

Limited radiation resistance, but perhaps susceptible to corrosives.

What about the different degrees of droids? While every droid can learn every skill, each degree is designed for specific task groups. Are we applying bonuses or penalties to different skills based on a given droid's chassis design?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest I see droids as more or less water proof.
When reading aftermath, the droid mr bones, a modified clone wars battle droid, it had a limited self repair function, with some magnetics even to attach limes.

As to game mechanics and balance i would say things like water proofing would be semi standard, meaning a droid made for a desert world would most likely have more dust protection over water, but not in a significant difference still.

Waterproofing I see as simply that leve of technology, i don't see an under water "electric door" on a underwater base as any more advanced than a waterproof droid.

It could naturally be argued that all droid characters are made with one resistance, be it water, dust and yes even ion shielding.

After all the ion shielded droid seems OP until you trip the fire alarm and it is hosed and eventually begins to loose systems.

That brings me into how I think water and the like affects droids.
Unless it is a ion blast I see systems shutting down eventually but slowly, maybe skills at a rate of 1 pip every 1 hour. and to regain them you simply need a good enough (heroic?) droid repair and programming to gain what is lost back.
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Telsij
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like this, Whill, the notion of treating a droid as an alien species in terms of game mechanics. Would go a long way toward making various droid PCs more evenly matched / balanced.

Once "core" traits are figured, various roles/droid-degree functions would +/- dice and skills in terms of differing special abilities. Will have to think more on this.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, do we want "Droid" to be a species, and individual models are made by your selections? Or do we break it down more finely... Maybe Classes of droids are the species? So, Artoo would be a Class Two droid. Threepeeo would be a Class Three droid. 2-1B would be a class one, etc.

Or do we get even more specific? R2's species is Astromech droid, same as R5 and Chopper, and maybe even BB8.

I like the idea, overall. I'd be inclined to give droids something like 12D in Attributes, 6D in attachments (which would be increases to skills that do not require CP to overcome), and 7D in skills.

Under this plan, you might see an Astromech that is

Dex 1D
Kno 2D
Mech 3D
-Astrogation: 4D Starship Shields 5D
Per 2D
Str 1D
Tech 3D
-Starfighter Repair 5D Starship Weapon Repair 4D Space Transports repair 4D

Attachments:
Astrogation Computer: +2D to Astrogation skill checks
Shield Interface Controller: +2D to Starship Shields skill checks
Starship Diagnostics tools: +2D to Starfighter Repair skill Checks.



This would be a very basic, off the shelf, Astromech. It's a competent mechanic, but it's optimized to being a help piloting a Starfighter, and keeping it repaired in flight. As it gets CPs, it can increase its skills, but the bonuses from its attachments don't count in the skills... it may roll 7D for Starfighter Repair, but it only costs 5 CP to add a pip to it.

***
A protocol droid

Dex 1D
Know 4D
Alien Species: 6D Cultures: 5D Languages 6D
Mech 1D
Per 3D
Str 1D
Tech 2D
Droid Programming 4D

Attachments
TranLang III Communications Module: +4D to Language skill checks
Cultural Database: +2D to Cultures Checks

This is a protocol droid that knows etiquette and protocol for a large variety of species, and knows most of their languages (with an effective 10D in Languages, they speak every language, for all intents and purposes, unless the GM assigns a penalty to speaking the language). They also have a smattering of droid programming, as they can interface with droids that are not intended to have direct contact with living sophonts (q.v. astromech droids, science droids, moisture vaporators).

****
A Combat Droid (Since I want a designation, here, we'll call it the USM3)

DEX 3D+2
*Blaster 5D+2
*Blaster:Blaster Rifle 6D+2
*Dodge 4D+2
*Grenade 4D+2
*Brawling Parry 4D+2
KNO 1D
MECH 1D
PER 2D+1
STR 2D
*Brawling 3D;
*Brawling:USM3 Combat: 4D
TECH 1D
*Droid Repair:USM3: 2D

Attachments:
Cybot Galactica Combat Computer: +2D to Blaster and Dodge skills
On-board droid diagnostic and repair system: +2D to Droid Repair Skills

A basic infantry droid, they're nonetheless tough customers... excellent marksmen and skilled dodgers, their Combat Computer lets them operate at full efficiency, even when taking multiple actions at once. They also have some limited self-repair capability, and are especially effective at dealing with their own kind, helping to maintain their own unit in the field.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Droids as a species Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
To be honest I see droids as more or less water proof...

Pel wrote:
They don't seem to short out in the rain or when submerged so other than increasing their maintenance frequency, I don't see any barriers to underwater operations. Same with working in a vacuum.

That's what I was thinking.

Pel wrote:
I think droids are pretty solid, if not necessarily all that heavy, and so they wouldn't float without some design changes or an add on flotation package.

So the norm would be not floating, which would seem to preclude swimming. We haven't seen much of aquatic droids in Star Wars (which should be a thing) and some of those could be mini-subs designed to move through water without sinking. So most droids could not have the swim skill or even use it at base STR. Are there any other skill restrictions that droids simply just can't do?

Pel wrote:
For a common language, they can probably all understand the binary language Threepio mentions to Uncle Owen and most seem to understand basic.

Binary is just one of those words Lucas used sound sciency (like parsecs), and then someone else came along and said that "the binary language of moisture vaporators and load lifters" must be what R2-D2 was speaking. Any computer (including droids) should understand "binary". I prefer to call R2-D2's language by the other term "Droidspeak." I never really thought about all droids understanding that language, but that certainly makes a lot of sense. It is quite reasonable that they would all speak or understand one other language, whether that be the human language or another depending on who owns it. There would probably be interchangeable language packs for most models.

Pel wrote:
Limited radiation resistance, but perhaps susceptible to corrosives.

OK.

Pel wrote:
What about the different degrees of droids? While every droid can learn every skill, each degree is designed for specific task groups. Are we applying bonuses or penalties to different skills based on a given droid's chassis design?

MrNexx wrote:
So, do we want "Droid" to be a species, and individual models are made by your selections? Or do we break it down more finely... Maybe Classes of droids are the species?...

I'd like to really nail down the general characteristics for all or most droids, but I think it is safe to say that all droids except Class 4 droids are hardwired to not harm organics or have combat skills. If there are any characteristics that would be shared by all or most droids of a class, then sure we could break down Class characteristics (like Class Four droids don't have the usual restrictions for harming organics and no combat skills).

No I'm not really thinking of a system for statting out all droids because I'm not going for a system specifically for making droids PCs (but if you want to do that, be my guest). Droid NPCs are like any NPCs where they don't have to be game balanced to each other or anyone else - Droid model stats should be whatever each droid model stats should be.

I personally don't allow droid PCs, but I know a lot of you do. I do allow a version of Shards but think of them as Shard-Droid symbionts. Shard-Droid PCs get 18D in attributes and skills like organic characters (regardless of droid model), but I haven't statted out the final Shard special abilities package or thought much about attachments. I was really thinking about general characteristics that would apply to all or most droid characters, which certainly would inform NPCs, PCs, Shards, whatever. So my Shard-Droid characters would have a species package for Shards and another package droids.

Pel wrote:
That's a lot to chew on, but well worth consideration.

Telsij wrote:
I really like this, Whill, the notion of treating a droid as an alien species in terms of game mechanics. Would go a long way toward making various droid PCs more evenly matched / balanced.

Once "core" traits are figured, various roles/droid-degree functions would +/- dice and skills in terms of differing special abilities. Will have to think more on this.

I'm looking forward to your ideas.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: Droids as a species Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I'd like to really nail down the general characteristics for all or most droids, but I think it is safe to say that all droids except Class 4 droids are hardwired to not harm organics or have combat skills. If there are any characteristics that would be shared by all or most droids of a class, then sure we could break down Class characteristics (like Class Four droids don't have the usual restrictions for harming organics and no combat skills).

No I'm not really thinking of a system for statting out all droids because I'm not going for a system specifically for making droids PCs (but if you want to do that, be my guest). Droid NPCs are like any NPCs where they don't have to be game balanced to each other or anyone else - Droid model stats should be whatever each droid model stats should be.


I wasn't considering PC droids, just your original question about making some guidelines for the droids species. If we do that, then it should be fairly easy to make a playable droid by just adding some attribute dice like we do with every other species. Smile

To that end, should we consider each class of droid a separate species? It would make statting easier, but limit customization. There are examples of cross-class droids, mostly assassins who would break that mold. Also, Human Replica Droids break every game rule (and every organic being) they encounter, so we might have to make provisions for that or just treat them like cyborg organics.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Droids as a species Reply with quote

Pel wrote:
I wasn't considering PC droids, just your original question about making some guidelines for the droids species. If we do that, then it should be fairly easy to make a playable droid by just adding some attribute dice like we do with every other species. Smile

To that end, should we consider each class of droid a separate species? It would make statting easier, but limit customization. There are examples of cross-class droids, mostly assassins who would break that mold. Also, Human Replica Droids break every game rule (and every organic being) they encounter, so we might have to make provisions for that or just treat them like cyborg organics.

If there are enough characteristic differences between droid classes then I could see a different "species" for each, but I'm not sure there are enough differences in characteristics to warrant that. Droid class is primarily a division of function into categories. What's been named in this thread so far mostly seems to apply to all or most droids, so right now I am seeing one general droids "species", somewhat like FFG considers droids. So it seems the first place to start will be droids in general. Of course there will always be exceptions to the norm.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say it's a mistake to classify droids as "species" at all. For one thing, they're classified by the purpose for which they were constructed, not by homeworld or whatever genetic characteristics are unique to their model. A Cybot Galactica droid isn't a Cybot Galactian, or a citizen of whatever world the factory that built it happened to be located on. Droids are highly advanced appliances who serve a purpose. Only the most advanced are qualified for "character" status, IMO.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'd say it's a mistake to classify droids as "species" at all. For one thing, they're classified by the purpose for which they were constructed, not by homeworld or whatever genetic characteristics are unique to their model. A Cybot Galactica droid isn't a Cybot Galactian, or a citizen of whatever world the factory that built it happened to be located on. Droids are highly advanced appliances who serve a purpose. Only the most advanced are qualified for "character" status, IMO.

Don't get too hung up on the terminology. The only purpose behind considering droids as a "species" is for stats/special abilities/restrictions. What are the common characteristics that most or all droids have that makes the droids that are characters different than biological characters in the game? Several of them are listed above in the thread.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm...

Well, I did include Droids in my Alien Environments article for the Adventurer's Journal. I made droids pretty resistant to heat and cold, as well as immune to most atmosphere variation. Hard vacuum could still damage most droids, apart from models designed for that environment, such as astromechs.

I would suggest that droids should have a separate Damage Chart from organic creatures, based on the fact that they're constructs. The Damaged Armor Chart on page 95 of 2R&E is a good place to start; I like the idea of a Mortally Wounded droid being "Useless, but capable of being repaired," while a Killed Droid has had some sort of critical component damage (like its heuristic processor took a direct hit and destroyed its personality). Unless the crew kept some sort of backup personality stored somewhere...

Also, I've suggested elsewhere that the Advantage/Disadvantage & Special Ability sections in D6 Space provide a good framework to map out balancing for droids vs. organics. Disadvantages like being effective slaves would generate D equivalent bonuses that would then be used to purchase off-setting advantages and special abilities, such as atmospheric resistance or special tools.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Well, I did include Droids in my Alien Environments article for the Adventurer's Journal. I made droids pretty resistant to heat and cold, as well as immune to most atmosphere variation. Hard vacuum could still damage most droids, apart from models designed for that environment, such as astromechs.

I would suggest that droids should have a separate Damage Chart from organic creatures, based on the fact that they're constructs. The Damaged Armor Chart on page 95 of 2R&E is a good place to start; I like the idea of a Mortally Wounded droid being "Useless, but capable of being repaired," while a Killed Droid has had some sort of critical component damage (like its heuristic processor took a direct hit and destroyed its personality). Unless the crew kept some sort of backup personality stored somewhere...

This is great stuff! Thanks!
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
This is great stuff! Thanks!

Also, with regard to repairs, the following passage from the ANH novelization, where Luke repairs Threepio's detached arm, provides some interesting thoughts...
Quote:
Fortunately, the automatic overload disconnects had given way under the severe strain, sealing electronic nerves and ganglia without any real damage. Repair was merely a matter of reattaching the limb to the shoulder, then activating the self-reseals. Had the arm been broken in mid-"bone" instead of at a joint, such repairs would've been impossible save at a factory shop.
So apparently, droid limbs are designed with "circuit breakers" in both the physical and electronic connection points.

As far as power usage, may the Stamina skill could be subbed in, with Stamina being rolled against an increasing Difficulty based on how long it's been since the last time the droid powered up.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: Droids as a species Reply with quote

Quote:
EDIT/New Intro: The game system and character game stats use the human standard as a basis. The game system doesn't need to say humans need to breath, sleep, and eat, or bother defining human abilities such as the light spectrum they can see and sound frequency range they can hear. The game doesn't have to because the GM and players of the games are all humans. Aliens are differentiated by comparison to humans, and "special" abilities are abilities different than the human norm. Droids are even more different than humans, but I've noticed that a lot of these differences aren't defined in droid character. Can droids swim, even at default to attribute? Shouldn't the differences in droid abilities be defined somewhere?

I realized I failed to really state the purpose behind the thread so I've edited the above text into the OP. I figured that we could possibly develop a general droid abilities differences that we could include into our droid stats, or just use it as a basis for all droids and then only mention any differences to the "droid norms" in stock/individual droid stats.

Full Disclosure: I created a new droid model and designed the droid's appearance. I will be statting it out so I started thinking about this stuff.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Also, with regard to repairs, the following passage from the ANH novelization, where Luke repairs Threepio's detached arm, provides some interesting thoughts...
Quote:
Fortunately, the automatic overload disconnects had given way under the severe strain, sealing electronic nerves and ganglia without any real damage. Repair was merely a matter of reattaching the limb to the shoulder, then activating the self-reseals. Had the arm been broken in mid-"bone" instead of at a joint, such repairs would've been impossible save at a factory shop.
So apparently, droid limbs are designed with "circuit breakers" in both the physical and electronic connection points.

Thanks. That must have been where my "self-repairing" memory came from.

CRMcNeill wrote:
As far as power usage, may the Stamina skill could be subbed in, with Stamina being rolled against an increasing Difficulty based on how long it's been since the last time the droid powered up.

I like it.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Also, I've suggested elsewhere that the Advantage/Disadvantage & Special Ability sections in D6 Space provide a good framework to map out balancing for droids vs. organics. Disadvantages like being effective slaves would generate D equivalent bonuses that would then be used to purchase off-setting advantages and special abilities, such as atmospheric resistance or special tools.

For clarification, I'm only hoping for us to come up with general droid abilities. The D6 Space Advantage/Disadvantage & Special Ability sections may certainly have some ideas, but there is no need to balance droid stats to anything. The only character game balance there is in the game is PCs being balanced to each other (and the GM balancing the challenge level of antagonists in the story to PCs). Just like it is true that not all species evolve equally, stock droids are not equal to humans, and each droid model is what it is without them being equal to each other.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: Droids as a species Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
For clarification, I'm only hoping for us to come up with general droid abilities. The D6 Space Advantage/Disadvantage & Special Ability sections may certainly have some ideas, but there is no need to balance droid stats to anything. The only character game balance there is in the game is PCs being balanced to each other (and the GM balancing the challenge level of antagonists in the story to PCs). Just like it is true that not all species evolve equally, stock droids are not equal to humans, and each droid model is what it is without them being equal to each other.

In that case, just use the Ad/Div & SA section just once, for the purposes of this rule, to calculate out what advantages and disadvantages are common to droids as a whole.
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